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marnixR
 Post subject: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:50 am

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Location: Cardiff, Wales

 from the other thread in cognitive science :Futilitist wrote:I have begun a discussion on the science of Futilitism (yes, Futilitism is a science as well as a philosophy!) in the ...which set me on a train of thought that appeared off-topic from the main discussion, that's why i started a thread on the topic of "what exactly IS futilitism ?"because i haven't been able to find any reference to it on the internet (apart from sites where Futilitist is active), nor have i ever encountered the term elsewhere in lifeso, i repeat my question : what is futilitism, and how is it a philosophy as well as a science ? (let's try to keep this discussion separate from the one in cognitive science by staying with the subject of what futilitism represents) _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
tridimity
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:59 am

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:55 pm
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 Futilitism is pointlessness. If futilitism is a philosophy or a Science, as far as I can tell, it has only one adherent - whose mission it is to waste time. _________________gone also
bunbury
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:31 pm
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 Bingo.
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:58 pm

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Location: Austin, Texas

 Perhaps it's the philosophy of making it futile to engage in productive discussion with others. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
GiantEvil
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:37 am

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 Futile, pointless, yep. _________________It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.-W. K. Clifford-
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:32 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
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Location: Cardiff, Wales

 iNow wrote:Perhaps it's the philosophy of making it futile to engage in productive discussion with others.indeed - i find it rather confusing that someone sets up a whole thread on a particular topic and then willingly lets it go off-topic by concentrating on the side issue of ad homsand when people want to bring the thread back on topic, then insist that the off-topic part of the thread is now the main topicgo figure _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:37 pm
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 I believe I have addressed one possible explanation for that in the thread itself. Futilitist may be conducting a deliberate experiment different from the one he claims to be interested in running, wherein he is manipulating participants to behave in certain ways. As an aside does anyone find it odd that someone so focused on group think should choose a names with so many I's in it?
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:51 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Are you all afraid of me? Why are you discussing a word that I clearly made up without even inviting me? How could this be productive? Do you think you can figure it out without me? I'll just kick back and listen. Let's see what you come up with.Or maybe you could just ask me.
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:08 am
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SkinWalker
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:40 am

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 WTF?Why wasn't I invited to this thread?
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:02 am

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marnixR
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:13 am

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
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Location: Cardiff, Wales

 Futilitist wrote:Are you all afraid of me? Why are you discussing a word that I clearly made up without even inviting me? How could this be productive? Do you think you can figure it out without me? I'll just kick back and listen. Let's see what you come up with.Or maybe you could just ask me. i, as admin for this site, hereby give you permission to roam all of the forumbut seriously, i thought there was a possibly different angle to the discussion of futilitism, and i didn't want to interrupt the flow of the original thread _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:46 am
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 Thank you to iNow for your kind words. Marnix, my apologies for having misinterpreted your intent in starting the thread. Perhaps I was reading into it what my own motivation might have been had I started it.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:20 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:24 pm

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Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:04 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 656

 iNow to SkinWalker wrote:"You have cooties, duh."Very mature. If someone has "cooties" then their membership in the group might be in jepardy. And I don't mean to imply that SkinWalker is not a trusted in-group member. He probably is. That is why you are sharing this inside joke with him. This is suposed to be a science forum. Do you believe that "cooties" are a real thing? Is there some scientific or physical basis for "cooties" that you wish to justify? iNow, why bring childish things like this into a serious discusion? Please grow up.---Futilitist
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:39 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
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Location: Cardiff, Wales

Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 marnixR wrote:we're all people - there are strings that can pulled so that they react the same wayReally? If these strings exist, then they are phenomena to be investigated scientifically, rather than just "crackpot" ideas to be denied and ignored.Some scientific questions raised by your insight:What are these strings? Do all people have them?What are the specific triggers?How do they work?What is the role of language in these behaviors?How did these behaviors evolve?What purpose do they serve?Is it really possible for any groups to be impartial about anything?What other bizarre secrets might be revealed by my technique?marnixR wrote:i've read through the whole communication and must admit that it's got me more confused rather than enlightened - how about an explanation in 1 or 2 paragraphs that explains the core items ?Futilitism is a made up word. I made it up. It can mean anything I want it to.The core concepts I've been trying to talk about come mostly from John Grey's "Straw Dogs" and from Rene Girard's concepts of mimetic desire, mimetic rivalry, and the scapegoat mechanism. There is also general support for the basic ideas in neuroscience, psychology, and social theory research. Mimetics has become a fruitful philosophic and scientific research area, in it's own right. You guys seem to be hearing this stuff for the first time.---Futilitist
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 pm

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 marnixR wrote:i've read through the whole communication and must admit that it's got me more confused rather than enlightened - how about an explanation in 1 or 2 paragraphs that explains the core items ?Futilitist wrote:The core concepts I've been trying to talk about come mostly from John Grey's "Straw Dogs" and from Rene Girard's concepts of mimetic desire, mimetic rivalry, and the scapegoat mechanism. There is also general support for the basic ideas in neuroscience, psychology, and social theory research. Mimetics has become a fruitful philosophic and scientific research area, in it's own right.That was not an explanation. Would you like to take another swing? _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:45 am

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 iNow wrote:I've quoted you [Ophiolite] here because I too would like [Futilitist to provide] an answer to your question, and also because you've brought such precision and clarity through your words.Futilitist wrote:iNow,You are admitting your frustration with me here. How? _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
SkinWalker
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:24 am

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 Futilitist wrote:iNow to SkinWalker wrote:"You have cooties, duh."Very mature. If someone has "cooties" then their membership in the group might be in jepardy. And I don't mean to imply that SkinWalker is not a trusted in-group member. He probably is. That is why you are sharing this inside joke with him. This is suposed to be a science forum. Do you believe that "cooties" are a real thing? Is there some scientific or physical basis for "cooties" that you wish to justify? iNow, why bring childish things like this into a serious discusion? Please grow up.---Futilitist Cooties are body lice. They're very real and have a long, scientific body of work behind their propagation and parasitic relationship with humanity. Interestingly enough, they only exist on humans. Other animals have their own species of lice, but there is a unique and specific species that afflicts only humans. It's quite a shame that, as a group, we can't seem to think of a way in which to effectively rid ourselves of them. Most people agree that they're a bad idea -that they're unpleasant to have colonizing the various warm, wet places of our bodies. As such, we marginalize those who refuse to adhere to group norms of hygiene and louse control. This might be an example of group think in action, one that could potentially rid the human populace of cooties were it not for those uncouth, uncaring anarchists of good hygiene.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:53 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 SkinWalker wrote:Futilitist wrote:iNow to SkinWalker wrote:"You have cooties, duh."Very mature. If someone has "cooties" then their membership in the group might be in jepardy. And I don't mean to imply that SkinWalker is not a trusted in-group member. He probably is. That is why you are sharing this inside joke with him. This is suposed to be a science forum. Do you believe that "cooties" are a real thing? Is there some scientific or physical basis for "cooties" that you wish to justify? iNow, why bring childish things like this into a serious discusion? Please grow up.---Futilitist Cooties are body lice. They're very real and have a long, scientific body of work behind their propagation and parasitic relationship with humanity. Interestingly enough, they only exist on humans. Other animals have their own species of lice, but there is a unique and specific species that afflicts only humans. It's quite a shame that, as a group, we can't seem to think of a way in which to effectively rid ourselves of them. Most people agree that they're a bad idea -that they're unpleasant to have colonizing the various warm, wet places of our bodies. As such, we marginalize those who refuse to adhere to group norms of hygiene and louse control. This might be an example of group think in action, one that could potentially rid the human populace of cooties were it not for those uncouth, uncaring anarchists of good hygiene.Sorry man. I just tried to post a complete reply to your post and the system malfuctioned, and I lost the post. I don't have time to rewrite it now. If I don't get swamped, I want to get back to this. Just a quick question for you for now: Speaking of "uncaring anarchists of good hygiene", in the philosophic sense at least, what do you think of nihilism? Please answer this. Thanks.Hey, I just now realized that nihilism has as many i's as Futilitism and Futilitist! Is nihilism ego centric?---Futilitist
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

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 Futilitist wrote:Speaking of "uncaring anarchists of good hygiene", in the philosophic sense at least, what do you think of nihilism? It's pointless. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:19 am

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Prometheus
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:35 am

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 Futilitist wrote: what do you think of nihilism? Please answer this. Thanks.I think nihilism is misunderstood, probably born from the various types of nihilism. But the doctrine that existence lacks any inherent meaning or purpose seems reasonable to me.You will forgive me for not reading all the numerous posts on this thread and I ask for clarification for what futilisism is.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Prometheus,Welcome to the conversation of endless loops.Futilitism is a philosophy that I made up as a tool to use in my social theory experiements. It helps make a difficult concept more fun and approachable. It posits a meaning to be found deep in the meaninglessness of nihilism, among other things. I posted an example of how I use this tool somewhere above.Here is the wordplay that Futilitism is based on:The search for utility in futility = Futilitism---Futilitist
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:26 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
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 Futilitist wrote:The search for utility in futility = Futilitismaha ! i see that my initial question has finally been answered - thank you for thatso on to my next question : if something is futile how do you determine whether it harbours any utility ? _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:40 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 marnixR wrote:Futilitist wrote:The search for utility in futility = Futilitismaha ! i see that my initial question has finally been answered - thank you for thatso on to my next question : if something is futile how do you determine whether it harbours any utility ?First off, I already answered your initial question in my post, above, in which I share my intro to Futilitism from my second experiment. There is much detail there. Please read it. The question you now ask is covered in detail.But I'll briefly answer you here.When you accept the futility of your situation, you face your actual reality. If you look long and hard enough, you may find that some utility can be derived from this practice. Thus, Futilitism provides good risk management and strategic planning benefits.---Futilitist
Prometheus
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:57 pm

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 Futilitist wrote:When you accept the futility of your situation, you face your actual reality. If you look long and hard enough, you may find that some utility can be derived from this practice. This sounds a lot like Albert Camus' absurdism. Deliberate or coincidence?
SkinWalker
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:56 am

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 Futilitist wrote:Speaking of "uncaring anarchists of good hygiene", in the philosophic sense at least, what do you think of nihilism? Please answer this. I don't think of nihilism. Sorry.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:58 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Prometheus wrote:Futilitist wrote:When you accept the futility of your situation, you face your actual reality. If you look long and hard enough, you may find that some utility can be derived from this practice. This sounds a lot like Albert Camus' absurdism. Deliberate or coincidence?Great question! Are you really from around these parts? What was it that Camus said about confiding with others? Think of that, in reverse, to see how you appear to me now, upon first impressions, with respect to this group. You can feel good about your position so far.I believe that Camus may have secretly been a Futilitist.Quote:There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.Camus is in wide agreement here with some other famous Futilitists, such as Girordano Bruno and Socretes. As well as other dominant paradigm subverters such as the mythical Jesus, and the actual Gandi and Martin Luther King. Quote:I shall tell you a great secret, my friend. Do not wait for the last judgment, it takes place every day.Camus on the scapegoat mechanism. Quote:In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.Camus on a basic Futilitism concept. Quote:You cannot acquire experience by making experiments. You cannot create experience. You must undergo it.Camus on experince, and being in an experiment. I think he would get a kick out of what has happened here.Quote:All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning.Camus on the birth of the brand new philosophy, science, and religion that I call Futilitism.---Futilitist
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:08 pm

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 MOD NOTE: Some posts from another thread were duplicated here. Those posts have been merged with the other thread, and can be found at the following link: topic773-160.htmlPlease Note: Any comments pertaining to this removal of duplicate posts should be directed to me via PM. Posts to this or the other thread regarding the move will be deleted. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
Prometheus
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:33 am

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 In what way is futilism a science? And how is it different from absurdism?
KALSTER
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:45 am
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 I don't see any utility in the futile endeavour of giving any serious consideration to Futilitist's posts. _________________"Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:40 am
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 Futilitist, the following is a classic demonstration of your comprehension difficulties.utilitist wrote:Speaking of "uncaring anarchists of good hygiene", in the philosophic sense at least, what do you think of nihilism? iNow then replied with the rather obvious, but nevertheless amusing:iNow wrote:It's pointless.This clearly went right over your head, for you asked:Futlitist wrote:Please elaborate.If you cannot properly interpret the meaning of a post that describes nihilism as pointless then I am not surprised that you think you have been bullied by iNow. It's really quite sad.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:10 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:21 am

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 KALSTER wrote:I don't see any utility in the futile endeavour of giving any serious consideration to Futilitist's posts.If Futilitism was easy, everyone would alreay be a Futilitist. Look closer.---Futilitist
KALSTER
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:38 am
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 Futilitist wrote:KALSTER wrote:I don't see any utility in the futile endeavour of giving any serious consideration to Futilitist's posts.If Futilitism was easy, everyone would alreay be a Futilitist. Look closer.---Futilitist I have already looked close enough, thanks. Looks more like a warped ego trip than anything else. _________________"Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:00 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 KALSTER,This quote is at the bottom of your post.KALSTER wrote:It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --- AristotleAristotle was a wise man. As long as you are going to quote him, you may as well take his advice.---Futilitist
KALSTER
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:28 am
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 He sure was. "Able" and "willing" are two different things though. _________________"Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:57 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 That is true. It is not compulsory. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Provided they are strong enough to have one of their own.---futilitist
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:55 pm

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 Futilitist wrote:You are saying quite directly that I have some sort of learning or comprehension disorder.I have to concur that your posts strongly suggest neurological or substance-abuse problems, but that's neither here nor there. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:23 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 SkinWalker,Please review this thread. I want your opinion of iNow's post as well as Ophiolite's posts. These constitute abusive behavior. I want to have a serious discussion. Please make them stop this childish behavior.Thank you.---Futilitist I will also contact you via PM.
iNow
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:54 am

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 Mod Note: Some recent posts have been moved to the Trash.topic793.htmlFutilitist - Please note that continuing to repeat the same posts after they have already been repeatedly moved to the trash could result in a suspension of your posting privileges. For clarity, a decision by us on the staff to remove something you've posted from the central discussion is $\displaystyle \ne$ an invitation to continue posting the same thing over and over again after it has been removed. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
Prometheus
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:48 am

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 Futilitist wrote: I want to have a serious discussion. Please make them stop this childish behavior.I have tried to engage you in serious discussion, and we may continue to do so. However, asking for a serious discussion after your spam attack outburst is a little hypocritical. If people are offending you either grow thicker skin or do not engage with those people. I recommend the former.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:37 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Thanks Prometheus. I very much appreciate your thoughtful and respectful approach to discussion on this forum. Your posts provide a much welcome relief from the usual drivel so prominently on display here. Hopefully we can get back to our serious discussion, as soon as I am able to post freely and without fear of capricious censorship.---Futilitist
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:11 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Please take a close look at the sequence of "smilies" laid out below. It is quite seriously meant to illustrate the concept of mirroring in mimetic rivalry. This took some time to assemble. It is not a joke or provocation of any kind. It is meant to relect my point of view. I just thought a modality switch from words to pictures might help. ---Futilitist
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:58 am
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 People react as well as act. I think we can all agree on that. So, nothing to see here. Move along please.
Futilitist
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:10 am

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:33 pm
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 Ophiolite wrote:People react as well as act. I think we can all agree on that. So, nothing to see here. Move along please.Can you please clarify the above statement? I'm having trouble with my reading comprehension on this one. Thanks.---Futilitist
Ophiolite
 Post subject: Re: what exactly IS futilitism ?  |  Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:22 am
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 Your sequence of smilies shows the path of a typical exchange between two people. In this exchange one person says something that impacts in a negative way on the other, leading to a series of escalating responses. Such behaviour has been observed, likely, since humans walked the planet. It has been researched by thousands of scientists. It is known to nearly every school child. You have said nothing new.
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