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marnixR
Post  Post subject: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:38 pm
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just been thinking about the similarities in some of the tactics employed by both creationists and climate change skeptics

granted that there's a world of difference in the certainty of the science that either of them challenges, but what struck me is that in both cases a debate happens in the public arena that just doesn't exist in the scientific arena - does that mean it's a made-up controversy, or one ignored in the scientific community

the second thing is how both creationists and climate change skeptics use the media to their advantage and especially the way the media like to give a balanced view of a debate, giving the impression that views of unequal scientific merit still carry the same weight

and another thing is that both of them accuse scientists of misdeeds which are more a reflection of their own political point of view rather than the actual truth about the misdeed - people get accused of fraud when the facts don't really warrant such a description (as Ben Santer said : "Nothing in my university training prepared me for what I faced in the aftermath of that report. You are prepared as a scientist to defend your research. But I was not prepared to defend my personal integrity.")

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GiantEvil
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:55 pm
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You could have easily posted this subject in Politics as well. Here is an example of the false equivalency ascribed to political polarization, that has been described in another post by Iceaura. Nutbaggery is not a legitimate counterview to reason.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:25 am
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oh, and one more thing both have in common : if you accept the stance of the scientific community, then you'd have to start taking measures to change your way of life - no wonder the resistance is fierce

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bunbury
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:24 pm
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I was just thinking how the birther movement, currently embodied in the ugly form of Donald Trump, uses the same tactics.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:27 am
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Likewise with those who disregard Keynesian economics or argue that tax cuts for the rich make up for their negative impact on the deficit by helping the economy overall despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Lately, I've been much reminded of the concept of newspeak as put forth by Orwell in 1984.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:30 am
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bunbury wrote:
I was just thinking how the birther movement, currently embodied in the ugly form of Donald Trump, uses the same tactics.


the irony is that, if you take this a few generations too far, you end up with only native americans being eligible for the presidency :roll:

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jlhredshift
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:51 am
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So, the subject here is religion and economics, very well. [The following is simply this persons opinion, not an advocacy.]

A religion is when a person invests thoughts and deeds so as to acquire an asset, such as everlasting life. When one has invested heavily during ones life to acquire that asset it will be difficult to dissuade them from it for they fear the loss of the asset, however intangible it may be. Hence, they will say anything that they see as proving their thoughts as being correct, which is their investment. In distant past historic times and today it may be the only asset a person may perceive of having ownership of themselves.

Planetary climate change is continuous on all planets, and stars for that matter, and always will be. The source of that change and its speed can be determined by scientific methods. The human species is continuously improving those methods and the understanding of the change. As the dominant species on this planet we have an impact. It is measurable by a scientific process. Determining whether that impact is good or bad, however, by a person, depends, on the investment that they have made in how they think, and hence, how far they will go to defend that thought process. Therefore, some peoples politics are a form of religion based on decisions of what is good or bad and they will defend their investment as being correct without basis in scientific fact.

If you all can solve this conundrum of the Human species...........

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:18 pm
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jlhredshift wrote:
So, the subject here is religion and economics


don't mind if that's where the discussion goes, but the OP was more about trying to figure out the commonalities between 2 strands of thinking that seem to be at odds with, and maybe even impervious to, the best scientific evidence available to us - i just thought there might be a common mindset that drives both

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bunbury
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:55 pm
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The members of groups that fanatically adhere to certain view points when all the evidence shows those views to be wrong have in common a fundamental belief or ideology that was formed long ago in their lives and has become so much a part of their lives that any evidence to the contrary is seen as an attack on them personally.

Or, more concisely (and maybe this has been said above already): confirmation bias.

The opposite is the pragmatist who looks at the evidence and may form beliefs based on the evidence, but does not shirk from adjusting those beliefs if the evidence supports a change. Of course, that's all of us here, isn't it? :|

Some people are said to have an addictive personality and I wonder if conspiracy theorists are a subgroup of this group?


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jlhredshift
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:11 am
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The "I want it to be true" emotion.

It seems to me that this is a powerful driver for those seeking to justify a certain worldview. Whether their desire is for peer acceptance or personal justification of a position they will choose evidence and testimony that fits that worldview to the exclusion of the contrary. A court trial is a good example. But, the individual, generally, wants to show "if this=>that"; if a miracle occurred then their is a god, moon landing faked then government evil, climate change then man, technology, or governmental system evil.

But what baffles me is how success in any of these types of advocacies would make one think it would ensure happiness to the individual, which of course it can't. Therefore, (remember "if this=>that") it must be the journey, not the end result, that is the driver. They gain pleasure from the advocacy. Don't we all do that?

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iceaura
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:18 pm
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Another commonality between climate change denialists and creationists is their targeting by powerful and diligent political interests, power centers with access to influential media.

Although personal deficits of character or intellectual ability no doubt play important roles, it's not really fair to disparage too strongly people who have been the focus of professional marketers and institutionalized persuasion efforts their whole lives - either for being conned, or for backlashing against all official and high-status persuasion efforts.

After all, what haven't we seen wrapped up in the rhetoric of "science" by people no more capable of self-awareness in their commitment to flagrant intellectual error than any gat-toothed backwoods snake-handler being mocked in any of these forums?

Take a look at any discussion of nuclear or solar power, "organic" or "conventional" agriculture, genetic engineering, race or sex in human biology, and the like - any area of discourse in which strong political or economic interests with easy media access have found their bottom lines at odds with physical reality.

And maybe take it easy on the denialist wingnuts: that observation glass looked through darkly? - it might not be a window so much as a mirror.


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bunbury
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:42 am
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There are also differences that seem hard to explain. Climate science is not an easy subject, even for educated people. It seems obvious, unless you know a bit about thermal radiation, that that tiny percentage of CO2 in the air can't possibly have any effect on the climate. It takes more than a bit of study to understand the physics. Creationism, on the other hand, is so obviously at odds with the physical evidence lying all around us that one has to be positively dense, or else positively brainwashed, not to see how absurd creationism is.

So there should be hope that climate science deniers among hoi polloi (not the paid hacks) can be swung. Not so much the creationists.

By the way,

Quote:
And maybe take it easy on the denialist wingnuts: that observation glass looked through darkly? - it might not be a window so much as a mirror.

more recent translations or interpretations do have it as a mirror, not a window.


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SkinWalker
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:52 pm
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I think we can't really call them "skeptics" since this really isn't true.

In all actuality, they're pseudo-skeptics.

This is because they seem more to pretend to be skeptical when the reality is that they are anything but.

Skeptics evaluate claims based on all available data. More importantly, true skeptics don't accept conclusions and claims based off them at face value, rather they look first to the data then allow the data to inform conclusions. If they match, wonderful. If not, new conclusions are proposed.

Pseudo-skeptics already have conclusions to which they seek only that data which are supportive. A "climate-skeptic" began with the notion that climate change is bogus. He (almost always a he it seems) then turns to the data, dismissing out of hand that which are non-supportive of his conclusion and embracing that which are.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: creationist / climate change skeptic  |  Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:30 pm
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i'm clearly not the only one who spotted the similarities - in an article called "A life with no purpose" by George Monbiot he writes the following :

Quote:
The controversy [about the appearance of design and the advocation of Intelligent Design] fscinates me. This is partly because of its similarity to the dispute about climate change. Like the climate change deniers, the advocates of intelligent design cherry-pick the data that appear to support their case. They ask for evidence, then ignore it when it's presented to them. They invoke a conspiracy to explain the scientific consensus, and are unembarrassed by their own scientific illiteracy.


clearly a case where the protection of one's own world view, however much at odds with the objective facts, takes precedence over the undeniable (but denied nonetheless) validity of the opposing viewpoint

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