FAQ
It is currently Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:40 am


Author Message
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:50 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
My simple point is this:

With the exponential rise in technological expertise, breaking the nanometre barrier, and pushing the gates relentlesly, of what was achievable decades or centuries ago, is it possible that the world is moving towards a given endpoint where reason and logic will dominate over faith? Is each scientific discovery bringing us closer to a truly secular and liberal society?

Is there a true direction to history riding on the coat-tails of reason rather than faith?

(I will edit in links when I can find them)

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:48 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
don't know whether there's a true direction in history
trends are only visible in hindsight, and prediction of the future has always been marred by the failure of the "if this goes on ..." method - unforeseen events always interfere with expectations

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:14 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
But if the scientific method and mindset dominate the influenntial and rich nations of the world, should that rationality not lead to a new age of reasoning and technology. For example, in surgery, we have moved from the old soldier's surgery of cutting off limbs to save the body all the way to keyhole/minimal invasive surgery. Longevity is increasing on a daily basis and computer technology is making huge advances.

What is stopping this 'Age of Reason' from dominating the ethical and political spheres of life?

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:37 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
strange this, but my impression is that a lot of people in western europe are secular without necessarily having a proper grasp of what science is or what the scientific method stands for

i'm also of the opinion that the average human being is to large extent irrational and makes decisions based on gut feel, emotion or some rule-of-thumb - but we're all very good at hiding this fact from ourselves in a process called post-rationalisation

people are obviously willing to take the fruits of a science-driven society as a given, and maybe that gives them the feeling that certain problems that in the past would have invoked a spiritual solution, now can be dealt with a simple pill or technical gadget - maybe that gives them the impression that there is no longer any need for spiritualism to get through life

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:24 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5729
Location: Iowa

Offline
jimmydasaint wrote:
What is stopping this 'Age of Reason' from dominating the ethical and political spheres of life?

Not to be too curt, but it's often a lack of education, or a group of people who lack reason being manipulated into being an obstacle.

As to the central thread subject, I really don't think so, no. Like marnix, I think we just sort of take it as it comes, and go along like a twig in the shoulders of a mighty stream. The stream may have a 'given end,' but we're talking about the twig, and I don't think that has a destination in mind. It just lands where it lands.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:01 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
I think what you guys said is at the heart of the problem. Rational thinking does not necessarily spill over into the ethical or political spheres, where fiscal or political expediency and horse trading dominate.

Additionally, a limited section of the globe could actually see a direct benefit from scientific rationality, whilst the rest are struggling to get by with a square meal a day.

I do agree with marnixR and iNow that there is no clear direction that history seems to be following. However, I will definitely refer to Schumacher, and others, who surmised that future wars will be fought over dwindling natural resources. IMHO, future wars will be used to secure the energy needs of the richer nations.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:59 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
jimmydasaint wrote:
... who surmised that future wars will be fought over dwindling natural resources. IMHO, future wars will be used to secure the energy needs of the richer nations.


that may well be the case, provided technology doesn't find an alternative supply of natural resources - e.g. mastery of nuclear fusion could be a total game changer

always remember the salutary lessons from the Club of Rome - according to their 1972 report we would have run out of oil by now, and a variety of other products too

apart from ignoring the possibility of finding new reserves (deep sea drilling was still in its infancy then), there's also the problem with the definition of an ore : "a mineral that can be mined economically"
meaning that e.g. uneconomical tin deposits in cornwall could become economical again given the right degree of scarcity

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:57 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
I have a feeling in my water marnixR, and it may be down to the 2 strong cups of tea I've just drunk, that there is an end to history. The fundamentalists, of all hues, seem to be clamouring for a clash of civilisations and may try to fuflif the Biblical 'End of Times' scenario. I agree with you that rationality will never be the order of the day because the fields of political experimentation or those who believe in addressing moral issues from a political stance will never adopt the scientific method. Objective truth is unlikely to become objective reality but there is a significant portion of the population who want to see the world end with a big-ass war and that scares me.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:56 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
true that if humankind snuffs it (either through their own acts of omission or commission) that will represent the end of history as we know it - it will, however, not be the end of the world

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
x(x-y)
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 298
Location: UK

Offline
The problem with science in politics and society as a whole today, in my opinion, is that there just isn't enough of it and there are definitely not enough scientists (by this I mean those with degrees in hard sciences) who end up making the decisions for the countries across the globe. Take the UK as an example, a significant portion of the politicians in the British Government have a degree called PPE (Politics, Philosophy and Economics) and also a large amount have degrees in humanities such as History and classics such as English.

Now, not to be too harsh on the people who take these subjects (although as a person who loves science- especially physics- I cannot help it!), I honesty do not think that enough policy-makers and decision-makers of our society have a good grounding in science- a broad subject which, I find, is the most analytical, logical (well, except for mathematics) and skills-based topic.

So, yes, science has already influenced our world way beyond how our ancestors probably could've imagined- however, if we want to take this further and truly build a secular, logical, rationale, scientific society, then in my opinion we need scientists in positions of power to give them the decision making capabilities that our currently flawed society needs. Just think about it, if we had many more scientists in high-ranking decision-making positions then we could potentially achieve solutions to anthropogenic climate change mitigations much more quickly (and hopefully not be bogged down by oil-company and banker funded politicians).

And my reasons for a dramatic change in government structure/composition and fiscal decision makers? Just look at our current society- here in the UK, annual deficit is just under 100% of our GDP and our total debt is ~£1.5tn, whilst over the Atlantic we see a country with a debt of ~$15tn and over the English Channel we can see a complete disaster of politics and economics in the shape of the Eurozone and the EU (which, as an aside, I still think the euro will implode as a currency as the "solutions" the decision makers dream up turn out to not be solutions but just a quick term strategy to please the markets for a short while).

Anyway, that's my £0.02 on the matter...

_________________
"Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway".
- Feynman


Top
x(x-y)
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:16 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 298
Location: UK

Offline
marnixR wrote:
it will, however, not be the end of the world


Indeed, that is very true- I think may members of our species have dreamt up a fallacy which states that "if humanity goes extinct then the world ends". However, as we know, it most certainly will not end the world- we are completely insignificant in the "grand scheme of things"... and I don't think the Earth would really miss our species if we were to become extinct all of a sudden. I suppose you could think of it in terms of the dinosaur extinction- we have reason to believe that the extinction of the dinosaurs released life on Earth from the stagnant period of progression and eventually led to humanity being able to exist 65 million years later. So, who knows? If we go extinct, perhaps that could pave the way to another, more advanced species millions of years in the future? Ah well, but this is all just speculation really...!

_________________
"Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway".
- Feynman


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:17 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
x(x-y) wrote:
The problem with science in politics and society as a whole today, in my opinion, is that there just isn't enough of it


to which the standard answer is : Maggie Thatcher had a chemistry degree - 'nuff said
having a science education is no guarantee you're going to use or let it guide your policies

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
x(x-y)
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:35 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 298
Location: UK

Offline
An isolated case does not represent the entire situation very well, that being said- I do not, and never did, condone the idea that every person with a degree in science would make the best decisions all the time. However, I still stick to my opinion of more scientists in decision making positions would benefit society overall (on average).

_________________
"Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway".
- Feynman


Top
Ophiolite
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:51 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 261

Offline
jimmydasaint wrote:
But if the scientific method and mindset dominate the influenntial and rich nations of the world, should that rationality not lead to a new age of reasoning and technology. For example, in surgery, we have moved from the old soldier's surgery of cutting off limbs to save the body all the way to keyhole/minimal invasive surgery. Longevity is increasing on a daily basis and computer technology is making huge advances.

What is stopping this 'Age of Reason' from dominating the ethical and political spheres of life?


Top
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:24 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
Ophiolite, good question. I tried very hard to find information about multinationals and their influence but could not find any links that were relevant. However, my thinking is as follows. Capitalist systems contain no ethical framework. Multinationals and banks dominate the economies of Western nations. They have no loyalty to their customers but DO need to satisfy their shareholders with profit maximisation.

Consequentially, there is no need for a dominant mind-set based upon scientific rationality, with the exception of reducing the carbon footprint of the company. In fact, I would still state that our ethical systems, as they stand, are quintessentially the echoes of Christian ethics.

In the political sphere, certainly in Britain, the vast majority of politicians are from privileged backgrounds, with excellent educations from Oxford and Cambridge. However, recent scandals have exposed the low level corruption that permeates our politics and also the seedy nature of back scratching with private companies that makes politicians figures of general distrust amongst the public.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:25 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
jimmydasaint wrote:
... with excellent educations from Oxford and Cambridge.


one could question the assumption that an education which concentrates on politics, philosophy and economics at the exclusion of any other field of knowledge can be described as "excellent" - imo it represents a rather skewed version of education

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Hermit
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:30 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:31 am
Posts: 399
Location: Paradise in New Zealand

Offline
I have often noted in this, and other forums, that attitudes often reflect the country people come from.

Personally, as a New Zealander, I tend to be an optimist regarding the future of humanity. I see the very strong trends of growth in science and technology, and the related trend in growth of prosperity, and I see these as long term. Meaning that tomorrow's world will be even better than today's.

On the other hand, iNow, as a Texan gets depressed with human stupidity. Coming from a place loaded with idiotic over-religious nutters, that is understandable. Cheer up, iNow. I am sure that even Texas will eventually catch up.


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:33 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5729
Location: Iowa

Offline
Hermit wrote:
I am sure that even Texas will eventually catch up.

We'll see... ;)

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
x(x-y)
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:08 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 298
Location: UK

Offline
As long as there's someone called Alex Jones in Texas, it'll never catch-up! Only kidding... :D

_________________
"Nature doesn't care what we call it, she just does it anyway".
- Feynman


Top
jimmydasaint
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:53 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Farnham Royal, Bucks

Offline
My main reason for posting this topic was that there are Christian groups who consider that we are living in the 'end of days' and that there will be a monumental battle which they will win against the Muslims. Funnily enough there are Muslims who believe that THEY will win against the Christians. Combining these crazy attitudes means that reasonable people will suffer in my opinion.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor illis (I am a barbarian to those who do not know me) Ovid


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:36 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5729
Location: Iowa

Offline
jimmydasaint wrote:
My main reason for posting this topic was that there are Christian groups who consider that we are living in the 'end of days' and that there will be a monumental battle which they will win against the Muslims. Funnily enough there are Muslims who believe that THEY will win against the Christians. Combining these crazy attitudes means that reasonable people will suffer in my opinion.

Groups like this have existed at least for centuries. People claimed the end of days when Andrew Jackson was elected, and that it would be the end of days when the great depression hit, and that it would be the end of days when Kennedy was assassinated, or when women were given the vote, or when desegregation happened, or when Israel formed its own state, or when Russia launched Sputnik, or that it would be the end of days when 2000 came... There are countless examples of people who fear the end of times... and each of those examples has been proven wrong... Every single one.

I agree that reasonable people will suffer from all of this, but most of that suffering is just an enormous disgust for the widespread ignorance of humanity, the willingness of idiots to accept whatever nonsense is fed to them, and a frustration that the world has not yet moved beyond such childishness.

The suffering comes from lost productivity and enjoyment of this life because people want nothing more than armageddon and the fantasy world which they think awaits them in the next.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Nikelodeon
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:53 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 84

Offline
One day the world will end and boy will you feel sheepish!


Top
Hermit
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:49 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:31 am
Posts: 399
Location: Paradise in New Zealand

Offline
Jesus Christ claimed in one of his sermons to his disciples 2000 years ago that "some among you will never taste of death before the coming of the son of man in all his glory."

So don't be too hard on all his modern followers who make the same error. They are only following the example of the Big Kahoona himself.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:00 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Nikelodeon wrote:
One day the world will end and boy will you feel sheepish!


who are you calling a sheep shagger ?

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Ophiolite
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:20 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 261

Offline
marnixR wrote:
who are you calling a sheep shagger ?

You've been in Wales too long.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:51 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Ophiolite wrote:
You've been in Wales too long.


you could say i've taken root - i blame the rain

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
csiguy55
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:10 pm

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 4:45 pm
Posts: 4

Offline
I just find it very hard to believe in all of this, but I do see where you guys are coming from. Only time will tell and we will see if theses theories have any truth to them!


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:05 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
csiguy, please post something or PM me to prove that you're not a bot
if you are human and not a spammer, please increase the quality of your posts beyond that of your recent inanities

thank you

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Nikelodeon
Post  Post subject: Re: Is The World Moving to a Given End?  |  Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:37 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 84

Offline
I remember when bots are really zany. Now they just bore.


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy