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iNow
Post  Post subject: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:38 am
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What do you think... Is this the right approach or likely to make matters worse?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/worl ... tions.html
Quote:
In chilling language that evoked the horror of a nuclear exchange, Mr. Trump sought to deter North Korea from any actions that would put Americans at risk. But it was not clear what specifically would cross his line. Administration officials have said that a pre-emptive military strike, while a last resort, is among the options they have made available to the president.

“North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States,” Mr. Trump told reporters at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J., where he is spending much of the month on a working vacation. “They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.”

Is Trump trying to "out-North_Korea" North Korea?

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:50 am
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iNow wrote:
Is this the right approach or likely to make matters worse?

That depends on for whom - it makes matters worse for. Which party has more to loose should conflict breaks out?

Should missiles start flying and reach their intended targeted cities, I'm pretty sure the American citizens are willing to risk death and nuclear fallout just so their "Supreme Leader" can act all macho.

iNow wrote:
Is Trump trying to "out-North_Korea" North Korea?

Mostly definitely.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:21 am
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the American citizens are willing to risk death and nuclear fallout just so their "Supreme Leader" can act all macho.

Not necessarily. Trump's beating previous presidents at being unpopular:

(click to enlargify)
Image

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:30 am
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iNow wrote:
Not necessarily. Trump's beating previous presidents at being unpopular:

That was sarcasm if it was not obvious.


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DrKrettin
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:26 am
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
iNow wrote:
Not necessarily. Trump's beating previous presidents at being unpopular:

That was sarcasm if it was not obvious.


So hopefully was the word "enlargify"


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:10 am

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DrKrettin wrote:
scoobydoo1 wrote:
iNow wrote:
Not necessarily. Trump's beating previous presidents at being unpopular:

That was sarcasm if it was not obvious.


So hopefully was the word "enlargify"

Well my question is firstly how this confrontation will actually play out(seems like uncharted territory to me)

Secondly will Trump reap any political benefit from having an external enemy?

If any incompetence is shown up in this situation ,then no but this should be a very difficult hand for him to lose from (politically,I mean)


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:35 pm
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DrKrettin wrote:
So hopefully was the word "enlargify"

Oops... You're right. Sorry about that. I meant "embiggenate." :lol:

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:39 pm
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geordief wrote:
will Trump reap any political benefit from having an external enemy?

There are a few obvious ones that stand out to me:

  • War-time presidents have significantly more power than presidents during peace-time. They are in charge of the military and neither the congress nor judicial branches can interfere in any meaningful way (absent congress' ability to restrain budgets / cut the purse-strings... but hey... who cares about deficits in the US, anyway... it's not like we can't just spike the deficit further upward and do whatever we want with the tax payers credit card, after all...)
  • Support for presidents surges when they appear strong in international issues and are seen to be taking on foreign adversaries. See also: George W. Bush's spike in approval ratings immediately upon invasion of Iraq
  • Distracts the populace from the Russia investigation and related questionable ethics / legality of campaign actions
  • Drives another wedge between citizens and splits people into "support the president / support our troops" and "would rather not engage in another futile loss of blood and treasure." This is another "distraction from core issues" like climate change, healthcare, lack of improvement in people's lives, and related issues that actually matter on a day-to-day level to your average citizen, but where the President and his team seem to be failing miserably

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:05 pm

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Less talk, more action. For nearly 2 decades, nothing has worked--while NK continues to develop nucs and launch capabilities. Wide scale military surgical strikes on their stock piles, research and weapons development facilities and command nodes are more than warranted--it might well be the most prudent unless with the world is willing to live with a nuc capable despot.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:16 pm
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I tend to agree, but it would feel a lot better if it were South Korea and/or Japan initiating the strikes as they'll be the ones hurt most if conflict escalates.

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:06 pm

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iNow wrote:
I tend to agree, but it would feel a lot better if it were South Korea and/or Japan initiating the strikes as they'll be the ones hurt most if conflict escalates.


I doubt either has the capability such as bunker busters, perhaps tac nukes etc., though we'd probably need ROK's intelligence.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:40 am
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Is it wrong that I keep visualizing the following scenario:

Trump: "NK best not make any more threats to the US. They will be met fire and fury like the world has never seen. "

(5 hours later)
Advisor: "Mr. President, Kim Jung Un just threatened to attack Guam."

Trump: "See! It's already working. I told him to leave the US alone and now his threats are toward someone else. Btw - Where's Guam?"

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Olinguito
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:35 am
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It's something G. W. Bush himself would have been proud of. :lol:

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anticorncob28
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:51 am
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I don't know what's going to happen. I'm very curious about what the doomsday clock will read next year. If war breaks out, it won't cause a worldwide catastrophe (unless China decides to defend NK- that would get really ugly).
Hopefully Trump and Un will cool their tempers before any first strike occurs.

I largely blame Trump for publically threatening NK on twitter beforehand.

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janus
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:42 am

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anticorncob28 wrote:
I don't know what's going to happen. I'm very curious about what the doomsday clock will read next year. If war breaks out, it won't cause a worldwide catastrophe (unless China decides to defend NK- that would get really ugly).
Hopefully Trump and Un will cool their tempers before any first strike occurs.



The last I heard, China has told North Korea that they would be on their own if they fired the first shot, and they would only come to their defense if the US attacked first or attempted a regime change.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:04 pm
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janus wrote:
...they would only come to their defense if the US attacked first or attempted a regime change.

....A prospect that right now seems to be increasing in likelihood. Time will tell.

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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:18 am
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North Korea's defense has long been and still is, the ability to hurl instant devastation on South Korea with conventional weapons. I doubt the military means to nullify that will come in our lifetimes. A well orchestrated coup might do it.


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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:31 pm

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North Korea has thousands of artillery pieces pointed at South Korea. mostly targeting Seoul. Providing all of the hardware works and there is ammunition, and personnel to fire the things, destruction will be brought down on Seoul and the rest of South Korea. However this destruction may only last a few hours. High altitude carpet bombing and MOAB'S would neutralise the offending artillery pieces. North Korea cannot win a conventional war, nor can they win a nuclear war (even if they have the capabilities ). Donald Trump is right to call out the North Koreans, diplomacy has not worked , Trumpacy will work.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 pm
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Trump is now threatening th break relations with SOUTH Korea. This asshat's gonna get us all killed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... rade-deal/
Quote:
Trump has threatened before to withdraw from trade pacts only to pull back, but his threat to South Korea comes as the two countries look to create a united front against North Korea at a time when military tensions are at their highest level in years.

As if to underscore the point, North Korea said Sunday that it had developed a more advanced nuclear bomb with "great destructive power," releasing photos of Kim Jong Un inspecting what it said was a hydrogen bomb that could be attached to a missile capable of reaching the mainland United States.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:04 am

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Is it a platitude to say that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger?

The way the world deals with N.Korea will determine whether it can learn to deal with bad and novel situations.

On the face of it this should be an easy problem to solve but the trick is to do it without avoidable casualties.

Also the co operation of all countries involve (ie everyone) should be a learning achievement in itself.


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Olinguito
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:37 am
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It gets scarier: North Korea may now even be developing hydrogen bombs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41139445

IMHO I think the N Korean leader is just trying to scare the world (particularly America) that's all. His nuclear programme is just something he's developed an obsession with; I doubt he will put it to actual use, knowing he surely won't stand a chance against any retaliatory strike by the US. It's just inferiority complex: he wants to be seen as being powerful because he can't stand not being seen as being powerful.

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Olinguito
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:53 pm
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-as ... af42f67cfc
Quote:
President Trump's tweet attacking South Korea's "talk of appeasing" North Korea is coming in for some criticism.

Some observers say his stance may be related to a threat to pull the US out of a trade deal with South Korea.

On Saturday reports said Mr Trump had asked aides to prepare for US withdrawal. In July the US told South Korea it wanted to renegotiate a 2012 trade deal, citing a lopsided trading relationship.

In July South Korea proposed holding military talks with the North, after weeks of heightened tension following a long-range missile test by Pyongyang.

Joshua Pollack, associate fellow at defence and security think tank RUSI, said the two were linked.

This was Trump's tweet:
Quote:
South Korea is finding, as I have told them, that their talk of appeasement with North Korea will not work, they only understand one thing!

So no question about Trump retaliating if N Korea strikes – which is why it doesn't dare.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:27 pm
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All fair points, but can't understand damaging relations with South Korea, especially right now.

...especially with North Korea conducting their largest ever underground nuclear test last night...

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:00 pm

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iNow wrote:
All fair points, but can't understand damaging relations with South Korea, especially right now.

...especially with North Korea conducting their largest ever underground nuclear test last night...

It seems like an own goal. He is giving fuel to the sentiment that the USA does not have sincere commitments to its allies.

What is Japan to think? What about the S Korean population? Are they being encouraged to see the USA as simply running some kind of a protection racket?

I do agree that the USA should not be expected to be the world's policeman for little return but the USA does receive a return for its military protection, although it is practically impossible to quantify.

In this case it is obscene to paint the S.Koreans as "spongers" as they are the ones first and foremost in the firing line with their centres of population staring down the barrel of thousands of artillery pieces..


Of course obscenity is par for the course with the man who won the last USA presidential election.


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Fire and Fury Like the World Has Never Seen  |  Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:12 pm

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Olinguito wrote:
So no question about Trump retaliating if N Korea strikes – which is why it doesn't dare.

N Korea does not need to use its nuclear arsenal to (in their eyes) gaining a benefit from having them. The possession can be used as leverage (blackmail)as well as having a genuine use if they are physically attacked.

The man who launches their bomb may feel he has nothing to lose at that stage.

Also I hear they can sell their technology to the highest bidder (not sure how ICBM technology can be "usefully" hawked around though).


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