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fay's unKle
Post  Post subject: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:17 pm

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What effect will the progressive working hours reduction have, on this part of unemployment, that is created by automation.


Can such measure combat the present levels of unemployment and most importantly, the unavoidably upcoming higher unemployment and wages reductions, as automation advances and matures more. Employee compensations will also be in danger because human work will get less and less necessary and important.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:31 pm
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what you appear tobemissing is that while on average the working hours will decrease, what this will mean in reality is that a smaller number of people will be working the standard hours, whilst an increasing number will be unemployed, i.e. working zero hours

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:38 am
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Underemployment is already a reality

Image

60% of the jobs created since the "recovery" have been low wage, part time.

Take away the phunny money easy credit to see: the economy is not "pining for the fjords"

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:59 pm

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Rory wrote:
Take away the phunny money easy credit to see: the economy is not "pining for the fjords"


Huh?


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:46 pm
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Lynx_Fox wrote:
Rory wrote:
Take away the phunny money easy credit to see: the economy is not "pining for the fjords"


Huh?


monty python's dead parrot sketch

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fay's unKle
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:10 pm

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Working hours ought to have started being reduced decades ago, gradually, 10 minutes one year, 5-10 minutes a year or two later and so on without reducing the salaries and wages. A gradual reduction is in my opinion a much preferable way because initially the 5-10 minutes are not "missing" from the work output, especially in the office. The difference would have been noticeable when the subtracted minutes accumulated but employers would have time to adjust.

As automated machines keep doing more and more in production of goods and services, replacing humans the working hours must gradually keep decreasing. If employment doesn't increase, which some use for an excuse (see some French's claims and excuses) nobody can proove that unemployment will not increase if working hours stay at the levels they were. By the way, for being just, in another sociol-economic matter, pensions, as life expectancy goes up, the age of retirement must go up, also gradually.

THERE IS NOT AS MUCH NEED FOR AS MANY WORKERS OF ALL SORT, EVEN COLLEGE GRADUATES, AS IT USED TO BE AND THIS IN MANY WAYS CREATES SOCIAL STRAINS BECAUSE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND GET UNHAPPY. EMPLOYERS CAN'T INCREASE THEIR BUSINESSES'S OUTPUT TO KEEP THE SAME NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES WITH NEW AUTOMATED MACHINES AND CONTINUE WITH FEWER EMPLOYEES AND THE SAME PRODUCTION.

The results are shown with statistics like these: Middle class's income is falling decade after decade and the upper 10% (or 5 or 15 doesn't really matter) decade after decade holds a bigger percentage of the total existing wealth. All the people can see what's coming but some could foresee it long ago.

It could be seen in the early 80s looked through engineering eyes that automation will be advanced soon as much as it didn't for the last many decades. The integrated circuit and electronics in general were about to give new life to the field. (No references will be made to specific machinery, as pneumatic versus programmable electrical with electronics, etc etc etc) So the factory floor was forcibly occupied but also the office, to an extent, which admittedly couldn't foresee, the PC was just born.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:06 am
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Given your feelings on that, what do you recommend as a solution? Do you support a universal basic income, perhaps?

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:12 am
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fay's unKle wrote:

THERE IS NOT AS MUCH NEED FOR AS MANY WORKERS OF ALL SORT, EVEN COLLEGE GRADUATES, AS IT USED TO BE AND THIS IN MANY WAYS CREATES SOCIAL STRAINS BECAUSE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND GET UNHAPPY. EMPLOYERS CAN'T INCREASE THEIR BUSINESSES'S OUTPUT TO KEEP THE SAME NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES WITH NEW AUTOMATED MACHINES AND CONTINUE WITH FEWER EMPLOYEES AND THE SAME PRODUCTION.


cite your source....

Also how will people keep houses and food provided if your plan happens?

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:56 pm

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iNow wrote:
Given your feelings on that, what do you recommend as a solution? Do you support a universal basic income, perhaps?



I think that's will be the inevitable outcome or impoverished will completely wreck the societies we find ourselves into. We're already seeing the strains--it's absolutely no coincidence that largely uneducated masses backed the populist most backward candidate in the US (and other places) and threaten to tear down the whole system with a futile attempts to bring back their rose colored past, rather than face reality that our entire educational and economic models are going to have to change.


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fay's unKle
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:24 am

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iNow wrote:
Given your feelings on that, what do you recommend as a solution? Do you support a universal basic income, perhaps?


I 'discovered' it.
If you are further interested, please look here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/co ... ic_income/


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:02 pm
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Your reply does not appear in any way to answer the question I posed. Will you please clarify? Am I correct to assume you do favor implantation of a UBI?

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"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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fay's unKle
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:47 pm

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It seems to me that by definition UBI means stay home and collect more than a SURVIVAL PACKAGE. Something like that can turn bad for various reasons. For 10 years I am thinking that:
Civilized societies of the 21st century need, at last, to take care, once and for all, the provision of the necessary that satisfy THE VERY BASIC NEEDS THAT COVER NUTRITION, CLOTHING, DWELLING and HEALTH CARE and only these, AUTOMATICALLY FOR ALL BORN PEOPLE AND AT BIRTH, without the person moving a finger, IDEALLY IN DIRECT PRODUCT PROVISION, without currency transactions.

A self-worth (dignity's) survival allowance package with direct provision of goods and services without currency use, may come by supplying AT BIRTH all the people with a 'credit' card (or cards) to use to get every month or week or whatever period is chosen, food and clothing from the appropriate outfits, about 100 bus-fares, 100 kwh in electricity, 1500 gals of water, HEALTHCARE, (you define the basic) etc, etc. So automatically,these will be free for everybody, if some people don't want to use some of them, it's their business. A little more specifically, for food the distribution may be done by asking (mandatorily) supermarkets to have a section for the storage of prepared foods and banks to include in ATMs the acceptance of these cards too for renewal.


I dare to say that this little will change the human being's mentality so much that nothing has change it before, since modern societies emerged. No matter what, about 3/4 of the people have constantly in their minds the bad thought of how they and their family will survive intact in very rainy days. Such social arrangements will calm the human being, so new societal behaviors will emerge, it's a need. Also partially, it will give the opportunity to people to refuse some employers who heavily are taking advantage of employees through need, by waiting and looking for the better.

P.S. In my opinion anything more than this as welcome as it may be must be on top of this AND MUST REQUIRE FOR ALL THE PEOPLE TO 'DO SOMETHING' TO COLLECT IT, which is very difficult to implement.

I am sorry but can write more here, on this bottomless subject.


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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:38 pm

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"P.S. In my opinion anything more than this as welcome as it may be must be on top of this AND MUST REQUIRE FOR ALL THE PEOPLE TO 'DO SOMETHING' TO COLLECT IT, which is very difficult to implement."

Don't really understand this. Why do you think it's hard? The US welfare systems, for example, mandates some degree of work and time limits for capable adults, the result being extremely low degrees of fraud (regardless of some GOP fake news).

I don't like payments for "not lifting a finger." There's just so many examples of nearly willful poverty in some community (particularly reservations) and a culture of accepting miserable conditions coupled with addiction problems they seem strongly related.


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:34 pm
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Lynx_Fox wrote:
I don't like payments for "not lifting a finger." There's just so many examples of nearly willful poverty in some community (particularly reservations) and a culture of accepting miserable conditions coupled with addiction problems they seem strongly related.

I support the UBI, but I agree with you about there being a culture of of willful poverty and accepting miserable conditions in some communities. Since we share the same state I would hazard a guess that we've seen the same ones, and as you mention this seems to be prevalent in reservations. The teachers I've worked with on the reservations have talked with me on this subject (part of why they're keen on trying to interest the children in science).

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Progressive working hours reduction ?  |  Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:10 am
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The economics of UBI are clear. It's the morality of it that's muddy.

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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