The Science Forum

There's this;
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM
There are nine different names on that article, for it to be a fabrication they would all have to agree to the fabrication.
And then there's this little bit;
http://www.google.com/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=911+bone+fragments
I'm curious as to what forces are involved in the fragmentation of bone?

GiantEvil wrote:There's this;
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM
There are nine different names on that article, for it to be a fabrication they would all have to agree to the fabrication.

The mere inclusion of Steven Jones in the list of authors is enough to disqualify that paper from serious consideration.

Getting 9 wackos to collaborate is not particularly difficult. Now ask yourself why the editor of this journal resigned over the publication of this article. http://truthgonewild.blogspot.com/2009/ ... mical.html

marnixR wrote:

kojax wrote:... but you're not willing to believe a similarly small number of people could pull this off as a false flag op, without all the suicide?

i'm not saying that's unlikely - what i'm saying is that some evidence would have been uncovered by someone over the last 10 years if that had been the case
after all, a drug cartel is not totally leak-proof, and information does become publicly available over time

Where would this evidence be recovered from? The wreckage of the planes? The wreckage of the buildings? Or are you looking for a signed confession? A paper trail maybe?

Oh wait.... some evidence has been uncovered. Looking at the top link in Giant Evil's post above, it looks like they've even recovered chips of what appears to be undetonated nano-thermite. Since there were no actual guns fired, residue from the bombs might be as close to a "smoking gun" as we're going to get.

http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocp ... 7TOCPJ.pdf

It's not an easy read, and I only skimmed it to the parts I was interested in, but they put the material under an electron microscope to confirm the aluminum and iron particles were really really small, like nano-thermite. I think you'd need pretty specialized equipment to get them that small.

X-ray energy-dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS) analyses
of both the red and gray layers from cross sections prepared
from the four dust samples were performed and representative spectra are shown in Figs. (6, 7). The four spectra in Fig.
(6) indicate that the gray layers are consistently characterized
by high iron and oxygen content including a smaller amount
of carbon. The chemical signatures found in the red layers
are also quite consistent (Fig. 7), each showing the presence
of aluminum (Al), silicon (Si), iron (Fe) and oxygen (O), and
a significant carbon (C) peak as well.
At still higher magnifications, BSE imaging of the red
layer illustrates the similarity between the different dust
samples. BSE images of small but representative portions of
each red-layer cross section are shown in Fig. (8). The results indicate that the small particles with very high BSE
intensity (brightness) are consistently 100 nm in size and
have a faceted appearance. These bright particles are seen
intermixed with plate-like particles that have intermediate
BSE intensity and are approximately 40 nm thick and up to
about 1 micron across. Furthermore, by comparing the BSE
image in Fig. (8a) to the SE image in Fig. (9), it can be seen
that all of the particles are embedded in an unstructured matrix which gives a dark BSE intensity

If you're waiting for a co-conspirator to come forward and confess, I wouldn't hold your breath. It sounds to me like nothing short of that would convince you that they did leave "some evidence".

[

DrRocket wrote:The mere inclusion of Steven Jones in the list of authors is enough to disqualify that paper from serious consideration.

That's got to be a bit of an exaggeration.

Whatever his past mistakes, he does have a degree in physics, and has made legitimate contributions in the past during his career. Certainly his word on a matter doesn't carry the same weight as that of a more reputable scientist, but certainly more than a lot of people, so really I'd have to suggest leaving the question up to who reviews it.

I've been able to find some (limited) peer review for the paper, and there are objections. I found this at least:

http://climateguy.blogspot.com/2010/11/ ... -cant.html

I might be inclined to agree with you (including the characterization) after I give this a good read.

kojax wrote:Where would this evidence be recovered from? The wreckage of the planes? The wreckage of the buildings? Or are you looking for a signed confession? A paper trail maybe?[

people tend to blab - if a conspiracy takes place, the more people are involved, and the more time passes by, the higher the likelihood that someone will blab
the fact that this hasn't happened reduces the probability that a conspiracy actually took place

Well, I can't say Mormonism scores cred points. But Jones's cold fusion work was the muon-catalyst variety, and done for the DOE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

Apparently iron microsphere's were found by an RJ Lee group, and USGS, study.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/cache/nyenvirolaw_WTCDustSignatureCompositionAndMorphology.pdf
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/table_1.html

Somewhere near the end of the Jones report it's suggested that the high amounts of silicone were part of a paint base.
Hire some Mexicans to do some painting...

marnixR wrote:

kojax wrote:Where would this evidence be recovered from? The wreckage of the planes? The wreckage of the buildings? Or are you looking for a signed confession? A paper trail maybe?[

people tend to blab - if a conspiracy takes place, the more people are involved, and the more time passes by, the higher the likelihood that someone will blab
the fact that this hasn't happened reduces the probability that a conspiracy actually took place

How many people are you thinking of? And what were their roles?

I mentioned before that a lot of the technical details could be assigned to engineers who have no clue what their designs will later be used for. They're not going to break a confidentiality agreement to tell an investigator that they remember doing work on a blackbox that added functionality to be overridden by a remote device.... or whatever. Even if they did, there'd be no way to confirm that their project played a role. Even if someone is hired to procure Thermite, .... how do they know what it's going to be used for?

The only people you have to worry about blabbing are the ones who actually know something, like the ones who did the deed itself. If someone set explosives in WTC 1, 2, or 7, that guy could (potentially) talk too much. Whoever gave him access (such as Larry Silverstien) could talk. If they had a man in the government (such as Donald Rumsfeld), he might talk. And, of course, both of those last two men *have* made statements that border on blabbing, but don't quite put them over the line.

Whoever took over the planes, if it wasn't the 19 hijackers (and at least flight 93 had to have had real hijackers on board, given the number of cell phone calls), those guys might talk later on. If someone at Shanksville planted evidence (as one very determined blogger on another 911 discussion thread I've been on continually insisted for pages... and pages...) that person could potentially talk.

Who's left?

marnixR wrote:i'm not saying that's unlikely - what i'm saying is that some evidence would have been uncovered by someone over the last 10 years if that had been the case
after all, a drug cartel is not totally leak-proof, and information does become publicly available over time

Interestingly, on that topic, the information on the government authorised "gun-running" and "operation fast-and-furious" programs is starting to come out now- Eric Holder admitting that the DoD authorised the illegal trading of guns over the Mexican border which disastrously ended up in real Cartels hands and even being used to kill US citizens- a quick google search will return lots of results on this.

Anyway, back on topic...

DrRocket wrote:The mere inclusion of Steven Jones in the list of authors is enough to disqualify that paper from serious consideration.

Irrelevant. I couldn't care less if the analysis and observational evidence came from a radical Islamist- if it's correct and reputable, then that's all that matters. And, so far, I haven't really seen many proper criticisms and challenges to the work of those such as Jones, Szamboty, Bowman, Dustenwald etc on the research of 9/11.

From a scientific perspective, I say leave the research of the events of 9/11 open- to say that NIST's final reports are irrefutable would be highly unscientific and most people acknowledge the fact that there are still flaws in the "official story" which have never been explained. There is no harm in continuing the research- after all, nearly 3000 people did die on that day, just shoving out an "official report" and essentially saying "that'll do" is quite disrespectful in my opinion.

kojax wrote:I mentioned before that a lot of the technical details could be assigned to engineers who have no clue what their designs will later be used for. They're not going to break a confidentiality agreement to tell an investigator that they remember doing work on a blackbox that added functionality to be overridden by a remote device.... or whatever. Even if they did, there'd be no way to confirm that their project played a role. Even if someone is hired to procure Thermite, .... how do they know what it's going to be used for?

Interesting points actually, and it reminds me of what the chief electrical engineer of WTC-1 and -2 said (he is now part of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth) concerning the topic. He stated that all electrical engineers involved with the elevator shaft had 24/7 access to such a facility and the elevator shafts were, of course, right next to the main steel core columns of the towers- giving such an engineer access to them.

kojax wrote:Even if someone is hired to procure Thermite, .... how do they know what it's going to be used for?

You do realize what you just typed, right? I'm not an explosives or demolitions expert by any means. And I'm not a chemist or physicist by even a long shot. But I do know something about thermite. Don't ask how or why. I won't answer. Thermite is heavy, bulky, and it would take an amount that would require dozens of people to be in the know to mix, transport, and implement.

It would be easier (and far, far cheaper) to simply hijack a plane and fly it into the building and let the jet fuel and impact do its thing.

I recommend the Skeptical Inquirer's review of the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense. It was just in a 2011 issue that I have at home. It covers all of the chief arguments of conspiracy nutters. You might be able to find this one online since it was a feature article.