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Rory
Post  Post subject: Love and morality  |  Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:56 pm
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To what extent do relationships - even committed, mutually beneficial, reciprocal loving relationships - involve one or both parties using the other?

Cultural morality insists that being attracted to somebody because of their capacity to generate wealth or cultivate resources, is morally abhorrent. The same standard apparently does not apply if you are attracted to somebody because of their propensity to make you laugh.

Why not?

Aren't all human interactions essentially an exchange of services e.g. 'using' somebody for their sense of humour?

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:31 am

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Rory wrote:
To what extent do relationships - even committed, mutually beneficial, reciprocal loving relationships - involve one or both parties using the other?

Cultural morality insists that being attracted to somebody because of their capacity to generate wealth or cultivate resources, is morally abhorrent?


Hmm, never observed this. In fact, while it might be considered shallow and sometimes discouraged, in most places I've been around the world, it's completely acceptable position to have--even in Western nations. Nowhere "morally abhorrent"


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:11 am
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What of the term "gold digger"?

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:52 pm

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Rory wrote:
What of the term "gold digger"?


What about them? Or the numerous women attending my college during the 80's who'd openly say they were persuing an Mrs. degree?

Or trump's wife?

It's all part of a range of the mating game behaviours--trading looks for security is as old at it gets and openly sanctioned as part of formal marriage relationships in many societies, including Western ones until pretty recently. Like I said, I find them shallow--particularly after having a deep and loving marriage for the past 32 years, but certainly, don't find them morally abhorrent.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:19 pm
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Cool, I don't mean to argue that they [the financially interested] are immoral, but I wanted to highlight the moral hypocrisy of holding two positions concurrently:

*those who select their partner on the basis of wealth are immoral
*those who select their partner on the basus of sense-of-humour are not immoral

Both 'use' the partner - neither is disinterested, or selfless.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:50 am
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Rory wrote:
Both 'use' the partner - neither is disinterested, or selfless.

Why should they be either?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:52 am
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I'm not suggesting that they ought to.

However, those who most bemoan "gold diggers" [those attracted by their mate's ability to accrue resources] will normally accept/approve "SOH diggers" [those attracted by their mate's ability to make every day fun].

Isn't this a moral contradiction?

Can relationships be regarded as exchange of services, or is this too unromantic?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:08 pm
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Sure, they could be. It could be stripped of all extraneous value and treated as a zero sum transaction, but why? What outcome does such an approach help us achieve?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:48 pm
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Is achievement a criterion for truth?

It just occurred to me that relationships can be considered as reciprocal service provision. The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name. Most people, I suspect, would prefer to cling to their fantasy of unconditional love.

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:00 am

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Rory wrote:
It just occurred to me that relationships can be considered as reciprocal service provision.

Drops jaw. It is almost in every case a reciprocal relationship. "unconditional love" doesn't really extend much further than mothers to offspring--and even then usually only in social species with a low number of offspring per mating pair.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:17 am
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What is so surprising?

Edit: emphasis intended on 'service provision', not 'reciprocal'

Service is something I associate with supermarkets, restaurants, hairdressers, etc. Modern culture has built a fantasy of romantic love. That's why it only just occurred to me.

I mean, it still sounds a bit weird.

Wife: there's your therapy session, is there anything else I can get for you?
Husband: that's all, thanks
Wife: that'll be one school run and a car MOT

#Silent marriage script

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:42 am
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Rory wrote:
What is so surprising?

Edit: emphasis intended on 'service provision', not 'reciprocal'

Service is something I associate with supermarkets, restaurants, hairdressers, etc. Modern culture has built a fantasy of romantic love. That's why it only just occurred to me.

I mean, it still sounds a bit weird.

Wife: there's your therapy session, is there anything else I can get for you?
Husband: that's all, thanks
Wife: that'll be one school run and a car MOT

#Silent marriage script

I hope you do not take what I am about to ask in a negative way, but have you ever been in a deep relationship with a significant other?

You may find the following TEDtalk insightful. Skip ahead to time index 00:08:21 if you are short on time, but otherwise, the entire clip is an interesting talk that I recommend those interested - to devote sixteen minutes of their time for.



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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:35 pm
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It feels like in this thread romantic love as described in fictional novels is somehow being conflated with the love felt between partners in most actual relationships (which in my experiences is by no means unconditional, but perhaps I'm a minority).

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:41 pm
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Once upon a time... sex for resources. The end.

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:30 am

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Rory wrote:
Once upon a time... sex for resources. The end.


A lot more complicated, as most things human, but needless to say there's almost always an exchange of something perceived as valuable--resources, good sex, influence, power, connections with rivels etc.


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:54 am

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A dynamic system but one or other of the parties are often frustrated that it does not evolve as expected.

We have to play the cards we are dealt and can be our own worst enemy.

Found that on a fortune cookie ;)


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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: Love and morality  |  Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:36 am
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I'm in similar social circle to Rory's. The few couples I know where plainly sex is exchanged for financial support, they present otherwise and go unchallenged because no one dare break taboo.


Unconditional love, as in the movies, I think is really infatuation. It's all about the other... which means it depends on the other and so isn't really unconditional. Like, what if he grows slovenly and peevish? Unconditional I think possible if it's all about yourself... about the vow you made privately in your own psyche because of who you are.


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