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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:36 pm
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Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.

Perspective 1.
Has man forgotten his rightful place as God’s master?

A theology makes you a slave to your God while the Jesus that Gnostic Christians follow has man take his rightful place as God’s master. After all, all the Gods are man-made. That is why Gnostic Christianity has always put man ahead of God. The Karaite Jews have that view as well as their oral tradition can overrule the written Torah and God himself, showing how old this tradition or ideology is.

It seems that without the lie of a supernatural God, people are not willing to have a man be God the way the ancients used to do. Emperors used to name themselves God and their sons, sons of God.

One of the Jesus' that the church did not silence, tells us that that is the right way to think when he said, instead of stoning people on the Sabbath, that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that, that Jesus would also say that religions and gods were made for man and not man for religions. Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, Yee are gods?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

-----------------------------------------

Perspective 2.
Does the Bible show that our next God is a Man?

The Bible states that when Jesus returns, his elect will make themselves known and elect him to rule over them. The Bible states that our new Jesus will not be recognizable and he will be elected by his Words. Remember that the story tellers, in one of the sequels, have named Jesus. --- The Word.

The Abrahamic Karaite oral tradition is that Rabbis, men generally, can overrule the written Word of God. In real language, this means that the interpretation of words and terms is to always be governed by men of the Divine Council and their elected God.

The voice of a man, to the Bible, --- is supreme and above God’s written words. That is as it should be as nature makes the ideal of all species to be one of their own. If a God cannot be or is not in our true image, then God is not worthy of us. This is the logic and reason why the rule of man over written tradition must be supreme. Anything else would be humankind giving up our natures for the nature of an alien form. God forbid.

More directly to the question. The Bible states that we are to kill witches. This, at that time, meant that men were not to let themselves be fooled by magicians or alchemists and other tricksters who might deceive them. This meant that nothing magical or supernatural, no magician doing illusions, etc., should be put above the spoken word.

The policy of the Divine Council was to rule by the tenet called the Golden Rule. The Rabbi class thus had the final say in all religious and political matters. The Divine Council would choose whom to anoint and follow as their Prophet/God/King.

Does this ultimately show that God was a man to the Jews who wrote the Bible? Is that why they were so unafraid to change Gods name so often?

Where Jews the first atheists? Closely followed by the Gnostic that had used Jewry as a springboard to their better Universalist creed? Is that why Rome hated Jews and Gnostic Christian?

If the Jews interpreted the word God as a man, the way the old Roman emperors did, then was placing a supernatural God up in heaven a poor theological position for us today.

----------------------------------------

Perspective 3.
Does as above so below mean that God must abide by man’s laws?

Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesars. Caesar makes the laws we live by and no religion is true to the laws set out by their Gods. Thank God as those laws are quite barbaric. For example, both Yahweh and Allah, through the mouths of men, promote stoning for adultery and sundry other sins. This of course ignores that both Gods show justice as being close to an eye for an eye which is what secular laws try to gauge punishment by.

There is a military term that says that the pace to be set by the troops is as fast as the slowest man. This is so that no man is left behind.

Since we have collectively decided that secular law is superior to the laws of heaven and God, does that mean that when Jesus return, he will validate secular law and ask us to follow Caesar?

Regards
DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:04 pm
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if you agree that gods are man-made, what's the point of them ?
why would they need deifying and treated as worthwhile of consideration if they're no less fictional than winnie the pooh ?

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:44 pm
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marnixR wrote:
if you agree that gods are man-made, what's the point of them ?
why would they need deifying and treated as worthwhile of consideration if they're no less fictional than winnie the pooh ?


Exactly the point, they are not worthy of consideration, especial given the religions they have spawned.

If religionists are going to follow the laws of the state, they may as well admit to being secularist, even if some theists do not like that label.

Doing so would enhance the death of the mainstream religions that are holding civilization back.

Both Christianity and Islam, basically, have developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I.

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DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:52 am
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then again, we only know of Jesus's existence through the bible, and if you doubt that the bible is a true description of events rather than mythology, his word isn't really worth the paper it's written on - it's only hearsay edited by later generations

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:40 pm
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marnixR wrote:
then again, we only know of Jesus's existence through the bible, and if you doubt that the bible is a true description of events rather than mythology, his word isn't really worth the paper it's written on - it's only hearsay edited by later generations


Christianity and Islam are both built on the supernatural and are thus myth based. They do not have facts to back their claims.

I see more than one Jesus in the scriptures. One I do not mind. The esoteric mystical one who preaches the supremacy of man over God. The other Rome created pacifist, I do not like. The morality he shows is quite poor.

I especially dislike his no divorce position as it is anti-love and quite unjust as it forces people to live in loveless or abusive households.

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DL


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:12 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Christianity and Islam are both built on the supernatural and are thus myth based. They do not have facts to back their claims.


Isn't that the essence of the real problem? These religions claim they do have facts, thus everything about them is factual in their own eyes.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:02 pm
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Christianity and Islam are both built on the supernatural and are thus myth based. They do not have facts to back their claims.


Isn't that the essence of the real problem? These religions claim they do have facts, thus everything about them is factual in their own eyes.


True, but it is to the one who are not living in a delusional state to try to pull them back into reality.

It is in our best interest given the damage they do to others, especially women and gays.

For evil to grow, etc.

Regards
DL


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:27 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
True, but it is to the one who are not living in a delusional state to try to pull them back into reality.


It's simpler to move faster than light.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:50 pm
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
True, but it is to the one who are not living in a delusional state to try to pull them back into reality.


It's simpler to move faster than light.


Yes, but to not try would be me not following the Golden Rule.

I do not find much wisdom in scriptures but this quote seems to show a decent moral position.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

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DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:03 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I do not find much wisdom in scriptures but this quote seems to show a decent moral position.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


sorry, you've lost me here - what's so moral about the passage you're quoting ?
to my irreligious mind, it, just like many other opaque pronouncements, could be interpreted in many different and possibly conficting ways

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:28 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I do not find much wisdom in scriptures but this quote seems to show a decent moral position.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


sorry, you've lost me here - what's so moral about the passage you're quoting ?
to my irreligious mind, it, just like many other opaque pronouncements, could be interpreted in many different and possibly conficting ways


Imagine if none of us bothered to correct poor thinking. We would still be in trees and caves and that lack of evolution in thinking, to me, would be immoral ands not following the Golden Rule.

That is why I call not correcting as immoral.

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DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:42 pm
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is that really the meaning of the "correcteth" in the quoted passage ? i thought in this context it means to punish someone - which is rather different from correcting a misconception

although, to be honest, we're discussing the possible meaning of a translation - what is the meaning in the original hebrew or greek text ?

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:16 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Quote:
is that really the meaning of the "correcteth" in the quoted passage ? i thought in this context it means to punish someone - which is rather different from correcting a misconception


I do not and will not try to second guess every word the biblical translators have put in the bible. The church uses the words it deemed fit.

Quote:
although, to be honest, we're discussing the possible meaning of a translation - what is the meaning in the original hebrew or greek text ?


This quote was from a Jewish Bible.
יב כִּי אֶת אֲשֶׁר יֶאֱהַב יְהוָה יוֹכִיחַ;
וּכְאָב, אֶת-בֵּן יִרְצֶה. 12 For whom the LORD loveth He correcteth, {N}
even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

I do not know, and as you can see above, I do not particularly care if there are other translations as the church uses what I put. If you have some other way you wish to translate it, give your wording and I can see if it says what that quote says.

I don't know about you but when I need correcting, I would not call it punishment but there is mental pain and anguish involved as no one likes to be wrong about things. It is more of a self punishment and chastisement of ourselves for our poor thinking.

Have you never slapped yourself in the forehead after some minor gaff that needed correction? I sure have, but not lately.

Regards
DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:25 pm
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there's such a thing as euphemisms - or in George Orwell's words, "newspeak"
see for instance the use of the term house of correction, which seems to be a less delightful concept than the word "correction" might imply

what I was saying was that after several thousands of years it's pretty hard to pick up undertones that might be obvious at the time

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:41 pm
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marnixR wrote:
there's such a thing as euphemisms - or in George Orwell's words, "newspeak"
see for instance the use of the term house of correction, which seems to be a less delightful concept than the word "correction" might imply

what I was saying was that after several thousands of years it's pretty hard to pick up undertones that might be obvious at the time


I agree, but if the church does not redefine what they want us to read, then who are we to try to redefine what they use.

As I said, if you have some other meaning you wish to put forth, I am happy to look at it.

Most bibles, old and new use the terms the same way.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm

Regards
DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:40 pm
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fair enough, except that I don't have to take their word for it - I prefer the "nullius in verba" motto from the Royal Society

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:01 pm
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marnixR wrote:
fair enough, except that I don't have to take their word for it - I prefer the "nullius in verba" motto from the Royal Society


I am willing to look at any wording you would like to offer.
More than this I cannot do.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:07 pm
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let's put it this way : here we got a compilation of bronze to Iron Age stories which are being interpreted by the church, a body that has a vested interest in making the type of interpretation that suits it best

does this sound like I should take any of its pronouncements serious ? the conflict of interest is so obvious that I'd say I shouldn't

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:18 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
marnixR wrote:
there's such a thing as euphemisms - or in George Orwell's words, "newspeak"
see for instance the use of the term house of correction, which seems to be a less delightful concept than the word "correction" might imply

what I was saying was that after several thousands of years it's pretty hard to pick up undertones that might be obvious at the time


I agree, but if the church does not redefine what they want us to read, then who are we to try to redefine what they use.

As I said, if you have some other meaning you wish to put forth, I am happy to look at it.

Most bibles, old and new use the terms the same way.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm

Regards
DL

No, most bibles do not use the same terms as the original stories did.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:42 pm
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marnixR wrote:
let's put it this way : here we got a compilation of bronze to Iron Age stories which are being interpreted by the church, a body that has a vested interest in making the type of interpretation that suits it best

does this sound like I should take any of its pronouncements serious ? the conflict of interest is so obvious that I'd say I shouldn't


Exactly why I put man above God as churches only want our cash and they put God above man by their various cons and lies.

Regards
DL


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:45 pm
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paleoichneum wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
marnixR wrote:
there's such a thing as euphemisms - or in George Orwell's words, "newspeak"
see for instance the use of the term house of correction, which seems to be a less delightful concept than the word "correction" might imply

what I was saying was that after several thousands of years it's pretty hard to pick up undertones that might be obvious at the time


I agree, but if the church does not redefine what they want us to read, then who are we to try to redefine what they use.

As I said, if you have some other meaning you wish to put forth, I am happy to look at it.

Most bibles, old and new use the terms the same way.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm

Regards
DL

No, most bibles do not use the same terms as the original stories did.


That link above belies what you put, but as I told our friend above, I am quite willing to look at whatever you are referring to. Please produce it as without it your claim is not worth consideration.

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DL


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:24 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
paleoichneum wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I agree, but if the church does not redefine what they want us to read, then who are we to try to redefine what they use.

As I said, if you have some other meaning you wish to put forth, I am happy to look at it.

Most bibles, old and new use the terms the same way.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm

Regards
DL

No, most bibles do not use the same terms as the original stories did.


That link above belies what you put, but as I told our friend above, I am quite willing to look at whatever you are referring to. Please produce it as without it your claim is not worth consideration.

Regards
DL


Corinthians 6:9. and the purposeful mis-translation

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:33 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
marnixR wrote:
let's put it this way : here we got a compilation of bronze to Iron Age stories which are being interpreted by the church, a body that has a vested interest in making the type of interpretation that suits it best

does this sound like I should take any of its pronouncements serious ? the conflict of interest is so obvious that I'd say I shouldn't


Exactly why I put man above God as churches only want our cash and they put God above man by their various cons and lies.

Regards
DL


except that in my case as an atheist there's no point putting man above god, since with god absent, that exercise becomes pretty nonsensical

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:47 pm
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paleoichneum wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
paleoichneum wrote:
No, most bibles do not use the same terms as the original stories did.


That link above belies what you put, but as I told our friend above, I am quite willing to look at whatever you are referring to. Please produce it as without it your claim is not worth consideration.

Regards
DL


Corinthians 6:9. and the purposeful mis-translation


The word at issue was correction. I fail to see what that verse has to do with that word.

Care to connect the dots?

Regards
DL


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:52 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
marnixR wrote:
let's put it this way : here we got a compilation of bronze to Iron Age stories which are being interpreted by the church, a body that has a vested interest in making the type of interpretation that suits it best

does this sound like I should take any of its pronouncements serious ? the conflict of interest is so obvious that I'd say I shouldn't


Exactly why I put man above God as churches only want our cash and they put God above man by their various cons and lies.

Regards
DL


except that in my case as an atheist there's no point putting man above god, since with god absent, that exercise becomes pretty nonsensical


Indeed, unless you define God better than the mainstream religions and think of God as meaning the best rules and laws to live life by.

That is what I think the original meaning was closer to before Christianity and Islam became idol worshiping cults.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Even the Jews defined God better than the Christians did.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

The bottom line on this marnixR.

Whatever ideology you follow, do not idol worship it or place to much emphasis on it and keep seeking to improve it. We are evolving creatures and our ideologies should also evolve.

Regards
DL


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:32 am
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
paleoichneum wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:

That link above belies what you put, but as I told our friend above, I am quite willing to look at whatever you are referring to. Please produce it as without it your claim is not worth consideration.

Regards
DL


Corinthians 6:9. and the purposeful mis-translation


The word at issue was correction. I fail to see what that verse has to do with that word.

Care to connect the dots?

Regards
DL

you cant be this obtuse, you asserted that modern bible translations are true to the original meaning. That passage of 1 Cor is NOT true to the original meaning.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:32 am
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paleoichneum wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
paleoichneum wrote:
Corinthians 6:9. and the purposeful mis-translation


The word at issue was correction. I fail to see what that verse has to do with that word.

Care to connect the dots?

Regards
DL

you cant be this obtuse, you asserted that modern bible translations are true to the original meaning. That passage of 1 Cor is NOT true to the original meaning.


Wrong.

Where did I make such a foolish statement.

Regards
DL


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Three perspectives on why man is God’s master.  |  Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:23 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
marnixR wrote:
there's such a thing as euphemisms - or in George Orwell's words, "newspeak"
see for instance the use of the term house of correction, which seems to be a less delightful concept than the word "correction" might imply

what I was saying was that after several thousands of years it's pretty hard to pick up undertones that might be obvious at the time


I agree, but if the church does not redefine what they want us to read, then who are we to try to redefine what they use.

As I said, if you have some other meaning you wish to put forth, I am happy to look at it.

Most bibles, old and new use the terms the same way.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm

Regards
DL

you said it right here.

STOP being obtuse.

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The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


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