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marnixR
Post  Post subject: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:20 pm
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it's already some time that I decided to give the US a miss in my travel plans, ever since the George W Bush days when every foreigner was considered to be a potential terrorist - since then I've even made sure that any return flights did not require changing flights on US territory just for the potential aggro it could cause if you dared to look the wrong way at a border agent

but now things have ratched up a notch :

A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

so from now on everyone is a suspect, especially if your name or looks might in the least be unamerican (read "not Anglo-Saxon")

I clearly remember landing in Florida in 1997 and being asked where we intended to spend the night
my answer "oh, we intend to find a campsite nearby somewhere" clearly was insufficiently detailed, but this being per-9/11 the lady was pleasant enough to give us a few options of which we used one to fill in the form

I can't see that happening anymore in these far less relaxed days, and that's why I decided that, until the US was less suspicious of aliens, the rest of the world was a more inviting place to explore

I'm still waiting for the shock of 9/11 to wear off sufficiently to make the US a more inviting place - and I'm very much aware that this may take longer than the time I have left on this earth

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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:59 pm
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Yeah, I've circumvented US territory throughout my adult life. But the issue is deeper than simply avoiding a country that might itself like to invade your privacy or hassle you.

The "Five Eyes" is a multinational intelligence partnership between Anglo-Saxon countries. It shares intelligence, and might suggest for example that a certain individual be detained at a border. Sounds fair enough on the surface, but what the Five Eyes really does is, by definition duplicitous. For example suppose the UK would like to spy on all her citizens. By domestic law, she can't. However there's no law preventing Canada from tapping every foreign UK email passing through Canadian nodes. Likewise though Canadians enjoy excellent protections against our own government spying on us, or holding us for interrogation, by the Five Eyes that's possible. In fact we outsource this illegal task to the US. They do the same by way of us, to unreasonably search their own, and so forth around and around the Five Eyes network, thus skirting all law.

Paradoxically, if you MarnixR were a person of interest to the UK, your domestic spy agencies might like to seize your laptop... but they must wait until you land in Australia. There local authorities may employ extraordinary means to learn about your possible Welsh terrorist connections, really no concern to Australians. But that's the point of Five Eyes: you're a valid target because you're just an innocent foreigner to that country.

Severe example of Five Eyes duplicity at work: Canadian citizen traveled to Tunisia, so he was interesting to Canada's spy agency CSIS. Under Five Eyes CSIS tipped US agencies to check him out. As it happened the return flight to Canada involved stopover at JFK Airport, where our American partners took the opportunity to detain him for questioning before he reached the safety of Montreal. They decided - in Canada's interest - that harsher interrogation might yield better results, so he got renditioned for "torture by proxy" in what was then a US intelligence partner, Syria.

UK I think employs Libya for that, I'm unsure. There seems to be a need for states at the bottom of the chain to host the really dirty work. States we can bully into cooperation.

Sorry for all the paragraphs above, illustrating the ... Five Eyes principle... there's no word in english for this thing that's the antithesis of political asylum.


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:57 am
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marnixR wrote:
it's already some time that I decided to give the US a miss in my travel plans, ever since the George W Bush days when every foreigner was considered to be a potential terrorist - since then I've even made sure that any return flights did not require changing flights on US territory just for the potential aggro it could cause if you dared to look the wrong way at a border agent

but now things have ratched up a notch :

A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

so from now on everyone is a suspect, especially if your name or looks might in the least be unamerican (read "not Anglo-Saxon")

I clearly remember landing in Florida in 1997 and being asked where we intended to spend the night
my answer "oh, we intend to find a campsite nearby somewhere" clearly was insufficiently detailed, but this being per-9/11 the lady was pleasant enough to give us a few options of which we used one to fill in the form

I can't see that happening anymore in these far less relaxed days, and that's why I decided that, until the US was less suspicious of aliens, the rest of the world was a more inviting place to explore

I'm still waiting for the shock of 9/11 to wear off sufficiently to make the US a more inviting place - and I'm very much aware that this may take longer than the time I have left on this earth


As a US citizen I am sorry that assholes have made it so you no longer find it worthwhile to visit the cool things here. Perfectly understandable though, I feel uncomfortable about flying from the US and trying to reenter even. Hell I'm unsure about even going across my local border crossing to Canada now that they apparently want social media passwords from everyone. They can take a sugar frosted fuck, if they think I'm going to give them my passwords. This is fucking ridiculous.

Although if I do cross into Canada to catch a movie or something I'll just leave my cell phone at home and claim I don't remember my passwords since they're all saved on my phone. Also going to make all of my accounts require two step verification so it would be pointless for them to have my password if my phone wasn't present anyways.

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:55 pm

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The OP, and the two post after it, it all just sounds like a conspiracy theory. Trump is in, get over it :D


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:10 pm
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wireless wrote:
The OP, and the two post after it, it all just sounds like a conspiracy theory. Trump is in, get over it :D

I see you've crawled out of your cave to just troll and add nothing to the discussion. I sincerely hope you get banned.
If you had even paid any attention to the OP you would see that his aversion to visiting the United States predates Trump's Presidency by at least sixteen years?

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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:25 pm
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Falconer360, you don't get asylum after crossing the Canadian border. You get the opposite.

All Canadian financial institutions are now required (by US law!) to collect information on transactions by "American persons", and submit that to the IRS. We cooperate because institutions failing to comply will be penalized, having assets seized. That's a real threat because of how money circulates around the world now, your government can easily intercept it. The order was issued globally, by the way, and grumbling aside everybody fell in line. Grumbling because we get no compensation for doing this work that's really none of our business.

I dunno if your bank passively collects transaction data for your government. I'm guessing no, that would be an unwarranted invasion of privacy. But your rights as a US citizen don't apply in foreign territory.

The law is well recognized among US ex-pats, because they're now required to pay taxes to the mother country. In this case your government wants Americans abroad to know they're watched, so they don't try to hide their (taxable) activities. But in case of tapping emails and such, your spy agencies must reveal as little as possible. For our part, the Canadian spy agency admits it contracts surveillance of Canadians through US partners, but refuses to reveal the details or extent. You should assume this works both ways. I mean, when you swipe your card at a Canadian theatre.


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:05 am
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Pong wrote:
Falconer360, you don't get asylum after crossing the Canadian border. You get the opposite...

Never expected some sort of asylum by entering Canada. I just mentioned legally crossing into Canada because it's very close to where I live, and because I used to spend lots of time there. I used to have soccer matches there when I was a kid. So my point was more that I worry travel between Washington and BC will become more difficult due to these new developments.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:07 am
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wireless wrote:
The OP, and the two post after it, it all just sounds like a conspiracy theory. Trump is in, get over it :D


what sort of conspiracy do you have in mind ?
all I was saying was that I don't feel inclined to visit a country where the default position appears to be that you're a criminal or a terrorist just because you're a foreigner - and as Falconer said, that predates Trump by quite a margin (although the novelty appears to be that even US citizens become suspect if they look the wrong type)

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: I don't intend to travel to the US  |  Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:36 am

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:45 pm
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Pong wrote:
Falconer360, you don't get asylum after crossing the Canadian border. You get the opposite.

All Canadian financial institutions are now required (by US law!) to collect information on transactions by "American persons", and submit that to the IRS. We cooperate because institutions failing to comply will be penalized, having assets seized. That's a real threat because of how money circulates around the world now, your government can easily intercept it. The order was issued globally, by the way, and grumbling aside everybody fell in line. Grumbling because we get no compensation for doing this work that's really none of our business.

I dunno if your bank passively collects transaction data for your government. I'm guessing no, that would be an unwarranted invasion of privacy. But your rights as a US citizen don't apply in foreign territory.

The law is well recognized among US ex-pats, because they're now required to pay taxes to the mother country. In this case your government wants Americans abroad to know they're watched, so they don't try to hide their (taxable) activities. But in case of tapping emails and such, your spy agencies must reveal as little as possible. For our part, the Canadian spy agency admits it contracts surveillance of Canadians through US partners, but refuses to reveal the details or extent. You should assume this works both ways. I mean, when you swipe your card at a Canadian theatre.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39003392
and
https://medium.freecodecamp.com/ill-nev ... .6q7t2zr1y
[i][u]
That is the OP's link I see. (time lag between mainstream media and the internet=3 days?)

This seems to be the new way of traveling ,or getting a job.

What are the implications? Get an online identity or get held up? This is not just the US -it may become worldwide.

Easily circumvented ,as usual by anyone with nefarious intentions ,I would have thought.


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