FAQ
It is currently Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:38 am


Author Message
me34
Post  Post subject: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:05 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
I am really scared it might. I don't want to be reincarnated again I have had such a horrible life. I was abused by my parents for years and the idea of having to live through that horrible time again is just too much. According to the theory I read it goes like this.

When you die the matter that makes you up is converted back into energy in numerous forms. Eventually that energy in an infinite timeline will eventually reform as you again under the exact same circumstances. T

Even if the universe is not infinite this will happen at some point when the universe dies and in an infinite space of time, a copy of this universe will be created probably an infinite number of times, with eventually another copy of you.

Thing is will that actually be you? Is it the same consciousness and mind, but without the memories or will it just be a copy of you. The energy has been converted back into matter that's identical to you, but its not the original matter that made up you and therefore is it a different consciousness as consciousness comes from your brain? However if consciousness is energy and the energy is the original does that not mean it is actually your original consciousness?

This terrifies me. I wouldn't mind if it was just a copy of me that was being recreated. The idea of it being me just without the memories and having to endure that abuse for the first time again is making me miserable every day. Please tell me even if there is validity to the theory it wouldn't really be you just a copy of you. I really, really don't want to live those horrible, horrible times.

Check out Zen Physics by David Darling.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:09 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
me34 wrote:
I am really scared it might. I don't want to be reincarnated again .


Sorry to hear you've had a tough time of it but don't worry. There is no evidence (or even any reason for thinking) that reincarnation occurs other than wishful thinking (or as a punishment) in certain religions.

The rest of your post is a mix of various misconceptions, false statements (or at least statements that have no supporting evidence and no reason to think they are true) and/or outright woo, so don't worry, live your life as well as you can, all the physical evidence says it's the only one you'll have...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:37 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
PhDemon wrote:
me34 wrote:
I am really scared it might. I don't want to be reincarnated again .


Sorry to hear you've had a tough time of it but don't worry. There is no evidence (or even any reason for thinking) that reincarnation occurs other than wishful thinking (or as a punishment) in certain religions.

The rest of your post is a mix of various misconceptions, false statements (or at least statements that have no supporting evidence and no reason to think they are true) and/or outright woo, so don't worry, live your life as well as you can, all the physical evidence says it's the only one you'll have...


Thanks, but you can tell me how it is nonsense. I really want a proper debunking. Is consciousness a form of energy. Does it have ANYTHING to do with energy. In which case if in the future version of me it is using the same energy to generate its consciousness then won't it be the same consciousness?

Here is a book that says the same thing Its only a part of it.https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C0HW0PQqIeIC&pg=PT61&lpg=PT61&dq=you+are+composed+of+almost+totally+different+atoms.&source=bl&ots=nYex-8v3cB&sig=F2AeMHmtP567FtDW2DfaFYIawHo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHz-e-ta3RAhWHiRoKHZ0ABPAQ6AEIGjAA Let me know what you think.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:44 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
It's woo, mystical, unscientific garbage with no evidence for any of it so it can be dismissed... That's how science works...

Books are generally not a good source for scientific evidence, they are not peer reviewed, anyone can write a book a fill it with all sorts of crap. There are books about Harry Potter, it doesn't mean magic exists...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:13 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
PhDemon wrote:
It's woo, mystical, unscientific garbage with no evidence for any of it so it can be dismissed... That's how science works...

Books are generally not a good source for scientific evidence, they are not peer reviewed, anyone can write a book a fill it with all sorts of crap. There are books about Harry Potter, it doesn't mean magic exists...


This book was published.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:20 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
So what, all sorts of shit books get published every day from crystal healing to alkaline diets to conspiracy theory nutjobbery. Doesn't make it true, it just means you've convinced someone (who probably knows nothing about the subject or at least thinks they can make money out of it) to publish it.

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:21 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Improve your karma and there will be no problems


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:30 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
Don't encourage woo :evil look: ;)

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
me34 wrote:
I don't want to be reincarnated again

There is no evidence reincarnation is real. Perhaps we live on in the minds of those who survive us, and sometimes our ideas will spread and change the world, but coming back as a butterfly? That's almost certainly a fiction created by humans to ease the anxiety of life and control the population of gullible people.

me34 wrote:
When you die the matter that makes you up is converted back into energy in numerous forms.

Small correction here. Matter is energy. It always changes forms, and will when we die, but even while we're alive our matter is in a constant state of death and replacement. Our cells die and are replaced by new ones. The molecules and atoms that compose us are cycling in and out. Either way, matter is equivalent to energy (perhaps you've heard of Einstein's famous equation?) and it just passes into other things when we die (like the earth, or the bugs and worms that eat us, or the plants that grow from that spot, for example).


me34 wrote:
Eventually that energy in an infinite timeline will eventually reform as you again under the exact same circumstances.

This is an illogical statement. The first part of your sentence does not lead naturally to the second part of your sentence. It's what's known as a nonsequitur.

me34 wrote:
Even if the universe is not infinite this will happen at some point when the universe dies and in an infinite space of time

It is difficult to parse the meaning of this. It reads to me like some sort of word salad. Are you trying to suggest something about probabilities and many worlds? That anything that can happen does happen? If so, you should note those are just hypotheses and conjectures, not facts based on evidence.


me34 wrote:
Thing is will that actually be you?

Since it's never ever once been shown to actually happen, there is no answer to this question. It's like asking, "If I was instead formed by the farts of purple unicorns, could I fly?" It's based on an unlikely premise is all I'm saying.

me34 wrote:
Is it the same consciousness and mind, but without the memories or will it just be a copy of you.

I encourage you to first confirm that we come back before you worry too much more about our composition and thoughts when we do.

me34 wrote:
This terrifies me.

Education is one of the best antidotes to fear. Right now, it seems clear that there are some gaps in your understanding of how the world around us actually works. I applaud your desire to fill them.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Thread moved to pseudo

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:57 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
PhDemon wrote:
Don't encourage woo :evil look: ;)

My response was excellent. Neutral and helpful at the same time :mrgreen:


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:09 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
iNow wrote:
There is no evidence reincarnation is real. Perhaps we live on in the minds of those who survive us, and sometimes our ideas will spread and change the world, but coming back as a butterfly? That's almost certainly a fiction created by humans to ease the anxiety of life and control the population of gullible people.

I don't believe in mystical reincarnation.

iNow wrote:
Small correction here. Matter is energy. It always changes forms, and will when we die, but even while we're alive our matter is in a constant state of death and replacement. Our cells die and are replaced by new ones. The molecules and atoms that compose us are cycling in and out. Either way, matter is equivalent to energy (perhaps you've heard of Einstein's famous equation?) and it just passes into other things when we die (like the earth, or the bugs and worms that eat us, or the plants that grow from that spot, for example).

Does this not back up what I was saying? All of our cells change in which case consciousness can't come from cells. It has to be a form of energy in which case it will never die. If it was just from cells then when or brain cells die and are replaced then we would not be the same people.

iNow wrote:
It is difficult to parse the meaning of this. It reads to me like some sort of word salad. Are you trying to suggest something about probabilities and many worlds? That anything that can happen does happen? If so, you should note those are just hypotheses and conjectures, not facts based on evidence.

It goes like this. Time is infinite right. After the Universe has ended then the energy which made it will still exist and there is an infinite amount of time for it to form into a new universe. Now if it does this over and over again then it may form one that looks exactly like ours with versions of us in it. Which leads to my next question.

Would these versions of us be us? Or would they just be a clone or a mock up? If consciousness is just a form of energy that runs through a physical body, and as the energy that made riginally would have become a new clone of me in the copy universe would it be the same concsiousness or just a mock up. I am terrified f it being the same man.

iNow wrote:
me34 wrote:
Thing is will that actually be you?

Since it's never ever once been shown to actually happen, there is no answer to this question. It's like asking, "If I was instead formed by the farts of purple unicorns, could I fly?" It's based on an unlikely premise is all I'm saying.


But suppose the idea is true, would it be me? What I am saying is if the energy that formed into me, later formed into another me would it have the same consciousness as it would be using the same energy to power its consciousness.

Here's an article someone did on it let me know what you think. http://www.democraticunderground.com/11355656


Last edited by iNow on Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tried to repair the broken quote structure to make the response readable


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Sorry I included some of your quotes in my response I didhn't edit that properly but I'd like a response anyway.


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:21 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Quote:
I don't believe in mystical reincarnation.

Everything about reincarnation is mystical.

If you're truly worried, change your attitude. So when you reincarnate, and just in case it will be you again..., you'll do better.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:28 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
Quote:
But suppose that it's true


Why? There is no evidence for it. If YOU want to believe nonsense go for it, but you won't persuade anyone with scientific training to join you...

Read iNow's post above carefully. I have nothing to add to it.

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:58 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
me34 wrote:
Sorry I included some of your quotes in my response I didhn't edit that properly but I'd like a response anyway.

I've edited it to repair the broken quotes. Apologies if I made any errors while doing so.

me34 wrote:
I don't believe in mystical reincarnation.

As noted above, all reincarnation in the forms you're discussing are "mystical" and based on what you've been writing you certainly appear to believe in it.

me34 wrote:
Does this not back up what I was saying?

No, it really doesn't.

me34 wrote:
All of our cells change in which case consciousness can't come from cells.

This doesn't make sense. It's another nonsequitur. It's like saying "Today is Tuesday so ducks grow on banana trees." It does not follow.

We also don't yet know enough about the nature of conciousness to form conclusions like you're forming here. It appears to be an emergent property of neural activation across different parts of the brain and body, but beyond that our understanding is limited. Calling it "energy" only confuses the issue and muddies the water.

me34 wrote:
If it was just from cells then when or brain cells die and are replaced then we would not be the same people.

Again, I disagree with your logic, but let's ignore that for a moment. Are you the same person today as you were yesterday? What about a year ago? What about 10 years ago? 30 years ago?

You already know the answer to this. You're not. You're different. You've grown. You've changed. You've learned new things.

On a biological level, our cells are being replaced all of the time. The wiring in our brains is continually being pruned and new connections grown. This is another area where I think spending some time learning how the brain works might help you reduce your fears and anxieties.

me34 wrote:
It goes like this. Time is infinite right.

No, not necessarily. Time is another concept that is profoundly resistant to simple definition. You are here assuming that time is infinite while not truly understanding the nature of time, infinity, or (as mentioned above) the consciousness you're attempting to relate this all to.

me34 wrote:
After the Universe has ended then the energy which made it will still exist

Another illogical comment. If the universe has "ended," then so too has the energy within it. The universe is everything, including energy and time itself.

me34 wrote:
and there is an infinite amount of time for it to form into a new universe. Now if it does this over and over again then it may form one that looks exactly like ours with versions of us in it.

Maybe, and maybe my teenage dreams of having sex with Scarlett Johansson will come true if I keep having that dream. Who knows? With this type of thinking, really anything is possible since it's no longer grounded in reality or evidence.

me34 wrote:
Would these versions of us be us?

Again, we can make up any answer we want because you're discussing fiction. The answer I will make up is, No. It would not be us, since we'd have died billions of years ago and the cells that composed us will have flowed into and out of countless other forms since then.

me34 wrote:
If consciousness is just a form of energy that runs through a physical body

It's not.

me34 wrote:
Here's an article someone did on it let me know what you think

I think it's unfortunate how wish thinking and woo still permeate our culture in ways like this. I think the author believes what he says, but that his conclusions are largely crap.

me34 wrote:
I am terrified f it being the same man.

Then stop worrying about many worlds hypotheses and the death of the universe at some billions of years in the future and educate yourself about how the world works today. Change the man you are into a better one. It starts with learning and education and hopefully leads to enlightenment.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:17 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Thank you for your reply, sorry to keep bothering you all I just want this debunked.

Quote:
It appears to be an emergent property of neural activation across different parts of the brain and body, but beyond that our understanding is limited. Calling it "energy" only confuses the issue and muddies the water.


But if Consciousness is the emergent property of neural activation then doesn't that mean its energy or powered by eneergy, in which case if the energy is the same, the consciousness is the same'?

Quote:
Again, I disagree with your logic, but let's ignore that for a moment. Are you the same person today as you were yesterday? What about a year ago? What about 10 years ago? 30 years ago?

You already know the answer to this. You're not. You're different. You've grown. You've changed. You've learned new things.


But I do have the same consciousness though. Again though would the hypothetical second me in the new universe just be a clone?


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:54 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
me34 wrote:
if Consciousness is the emergent property of neural activation then doesn't that mean its energy or powered by eneergy

I suspect consciousness comes from the activation of the nervous system, specifically our prefrontal cortex' attempt to make sense of all of the different data.

That is all a type of electric energy. When our nerve cells fire, an electrical signal travels from one point of the body to another, or one part of the brain and nervous system to a different part. Many of these signals are happening all of the time... right now there are hundreds, thousands, millions, and maybe billions of events in the nervous system happening at once.

Always there are some parts firing, others dormant, some interacting with the environment around us, some interacting with the biology inside of us, others interacting with the food we ate, etc. It's the aggregate of all of this activation and all of these different signals and our higher brains trying to make sense of it all that IMO likely underlies consciousness, but this is all guesswork and speculation since consciousness isn't very well understood and we simply don't know yet.

More specifically on your question about energy, simply saying "it's energy" isn't helpful at all. So is a tank full of kerosene. So is a block of wood. So is a ripple of water in the ocean. So is a slice of pizza or an orange. So is the light hitting my face from the sun or the wind blowing through my hair. Calling it "energy" doesn't help us at all here. It takes us farther away from understanding what's happening, not closer.

me34 wrote:
But I do have the same consciousness though.

No, you don't. You're already a different person now than you were a few hours ago. Your consciousness is different now because of the discussion we're having. You've learned new things. Had new thoughts. You've generated new questions... and that's just in the last few minutes, let alone the last 10 years.

me34 wrote:
Again though would the hypothetical second me in the new universe just be a clone?

No, that's not what a clone is. A clone is when your DNA is used to create a lifeform different from you. In the scenario you're discussing, it would be billions and billions of years in the future and the likelihood of a "second you" coming into existence from random chance is so infinitesimally small as to be ignored and treated as a zero probability.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:04 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
iNow wrote:
me34 wrote:
if Consciousness is the emergent property of neural activation then doesn't that mean its energy or powered by eneergy

I suspect consciousness comes from the activation of the nervous system, specifically our prefrontal cortex' attempt to make sense of all of the different data.

That is all a type of electric energy. When our nerve cells fire, an electrical signal travels from one point of the body to another, or one part of the brain and nervous system to a different part. Many of these signals are happening all of the time... right now there are hundreds, thousands, millions, and maybe billions of events in the nervous system happening at once.

Always there are some parts firing, others dormant, some interacting with the environment around us, some interacting with the biology inside of us, others interacting with the food we ate, etc. It's the aggregate of all of this activation and all of these different signals and our higher brains trying to make sense of it all that IMO likely underlies consciousness, but this is all guesswork and speculation since consciousness isn't very well understood and we simply don't know yet.

More specifically on your question about energy, simply saying "it's energy" isn't helpful at all. So is a tank full of kerosene. So is a block of wood. So is a ripple of water in the ocean. So is a slice of pizza or an orange. So is the light hitting my face from the sun or the wind blowing through my hair. Calling it "energy" doesn't help us at all here. It takes us farther away from understanding what's happening, not closer.

me34 wrote:
But I do have the same consciousness though.

No, you don't. You're already a different person now than you were a few hours ago. Your consciousness is different now because of the discussion we're having. You've learned new things. Had new thoughts. You've generated new questions... and that's just in the last few minutes, let alone the last 10 years.

me34 wrote:
Again though would the hypothetical second me in the new universe just be a clone?

No, that's not what a clone is. A clone is when your DNA is used to create a lifeform different from you. In the scenario you're discussing, it would be billions and billions of years in the future and the likelihood of a "second you" coming into existence from random chance is so infinitesimally small as to be ignored and treated as a zero probability.


It would be infinitely small, but then it was the first time too.

I just don't want the second me even in this theory to actually be me. Saying Consciousness is a type of electrical energy does seem to imply that if there were a second me, then he would be fired by the same electircal energy which would make him the same me.

Also my knowledge is different, but my consciousness is the same. What defines' consciousness however? Is it just being awake or is it you. I am only talking about being awake. In which case I hope the second me isn't my conscious self.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
Word salad...

Despite your protestations you seem to want to believe this nonsense. Nothing I post here will fix the problem so I'm done here. I leave you with the recommendation to see a proctologist to remove your head from your arse and then learn at least the basics of what you are talking about rather than making stuff up and looking foolish...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:23 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
PhDemon wrote:
Word salad...

Despite your protestations you seem to want to believe this nonsense. Nothing I post here will fix the problem so I'm done here. I leave you with the recommendation to see a proctologist to remove your head from your arse and then learn at least the basics of what you are talking about rather than making stuff up and looking foolish...


You'd think that would offend me, but it actually makes me feel a little better. I am sorry for this thread, but I wasn't trolling. I guess the prospect of living out what happened before scares me so much that I got a little desperate in trying to get people to debunk this.

I guess its maybe proof that I have unresolved issues.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
I wasn't intending to offend, it was good advice (if offered in a tongue in cheek humorous way). I say much worse to my friends and students IRL ;) Any way best of luck with your issues...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:04 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
me34 wrote:
It would be infinitely small, but then it was the first time too.

To be frank, the chances are higher that you'll spontaneously transform into a goat in Texas than the chances of a "second you" with the same "consciousness" spontaneously popping into existence billions of years in the future due to random chance alone.

me34 wrote:
What defines' consciousness however? Is it just being awake or is it you. I am only talking about being awake.

Again, this is a challenging question that has not yet been answered. Consciousness is more than just "being awake," though.

http://www.livescience.com/47096-theori ... sness.html

me34 wrote:
I am sorry for this thread, but I wasn't trolling.

Please don't apologize. Keep asking questions, but also keep trying to find answers on your own. This has been an interesting discussion.

me34 wrote:
I guess the prospect of living out what happened before scares me so much that I got a little desperate in trying to get people to debunk this.

The point is, there's really nothing to debunk. There's no evidence of reincarnation. No evidence that we'll come back and be the "same" person due to random chance billions of years in the future. That's all a distraction. If you've got issues from your past, then work with a professional to deal with those. Talk to a psychologist or a counselor. Deal with the unresolved and emotional stuff and then you can spend your time learning and studying the interesting stuff.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
I told you.. change the attitude, that will improve your karma and if you reincarnate again it will be better for you. Also, go to therapy.


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:24 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
iNow wrote:
me34 wrote:
It would be infinitely small, but then it was the first time too.

To be frank, the chances are higher that you'll spontaneously transform into a goat in Texas than the chances of a "second you" with the same "consciousness" spontaneously popping into existence billions of years in the future due to random chance alone.

me34 wrote:
What defines' consciousness however? Is it just being awake or is it you. I am only talking about being awake.

Again, this is a challenging question that has not yet been answered. Consciousness is more than just "being awake," though.

http://www.livescience.com/47096-theori ... sness.html

me34 wrote:
I am sorry for this thread, but I wasn't trolling.

Please don't apologize. Keep asking questions, but also keep trying to find answers on your own. This has been an interesting discussion.

me34 wrote:
I guess the prospect of living out what happened before scares me so much that I got a little desperate in trying to get people to debunk this.

The point is, there's really nothing to debunk. There's no evidence of reincarnation. No evidence that we'll come back and be the "same" person due to random chance billions of years in the future. That's all a distraction. If you've got issues from your past, then work with a professional to deal with those. Talk to a psychologist or a counselor. Deal with the unresolved and emotional stuff and then you can spend your time learning and studying the interesting stuff.


Could dejavu perhaps be proof of it as its memories of a past life? Also if nothing is forever then shouldn't death not be eternal either?

I suppose even if the energy that made me up was reconstituted into an exact copy of me, then it wouldn't be me as it would be a different body similar to mine, but as it would be a different body then its consciousness would be different.


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:56 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
me34 wrote:
Could dejavu perhaps be proof of it as its memories of a past life?

More likely, deja vu represents a malfunction in the process of converting working memory to long-term memory.

We suspect new experience information is mistakenly "tagged" as previous experience and the wrong parts of memory are being activated. The parts used for recall get activated instead of the parts used for new storage.

We don't fully understand deja vu yet either, though. These are conjectures.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:29 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
me34 wrote:
Could dejavu perhaps be proof of it as its memories of a past life?


In addition to what Inow mentioned, deja vu can also be triggered by being in a similar place or situation to one that you've been in before. One time I stopped at this abandoned old gas station (looked to be from the 50s) down by Multnomah Falls Oregon, it triggered a huge feeling of deja vu, even though I knew I had never been there before. Well several months later, I was driving through an area of Washington that I have driven through several times before, and happened to notice a very similar abandoned gas station there, which I had forgotten that I had stopped at years before. So my memory of the similar gas station in Washington, caused my feeling of deja vu at the one in Oregon.

me34 wrote:
Also if nothing is forever then shouldn't death not be eternal either?

Death is just the ceasing of life. Lifelessness is the default of matter, so there is no reason to believe that you would come back to life. At least this is if you aren't religious.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:42 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Sorry just one last question about consciousness or being awake or sentient.

Okay right now according to my theory it goes like this. The universe ends, but in the infinite amount of time the energy that makes it forms into a copy of it. It wil do this an infinite number of times and eventually there will be a copy like ours, as there has to be.

Now the copy of us will be made of of the same energy. Thing is if being awake is caused by chemical reactions, which are a form of energy would that not mean if it was the same energy that was doing it, it would be the same awareness. Or would it be a different person as its still a different body.

I am sorry I'd just like this last bit debunked. Even if you don't think we will be reborn, then still going by my premise you don't think it would still be me?


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:10 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
That energy you think forms a copy of the universe after it ends...please tell us all where you think that energy exists if the universe itself has ended?

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:56 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
iNow wrote:
That energy you think forms a copy of the universe after it ends...please tell us all where you think that energy exists if the universe itself has ended?


Energy can't be destroyed only converted so it survives, but then a quantam fluctuation creates a big bang like the one that created ours Also if the universe is infinite will this not happen anyway?


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:36 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Sorry I'm back again. I'm really scared this time. I just read that atoms can't be destroyed. So if the atoms that made up you one day reformed in the next universe into a copy of you would that not have the same consciousness?


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:38 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Oh ... my .. God.... :? (that doesn't exist by the way)...


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:20 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
Oh ... my .. God.... :? (that doesn't exist by the way)...


Please tell me what's wrong with what I am saying rather than just its crap?


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:25 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Read a newspaper and you will find better reasons to be scared...


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:50 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 507

Offline
me34 wrote:
Sorry I'm back again. I'm really scared this time. I just read that atoms can't be destroyed. So if the atoms that made up you one day reformed in the next universe into a copy of you would that not have the same consciousness?

Atoms can be destroyed, so your premise does not hold water.

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:56 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
me34 wrote:
Sorry I'm back again. I'm really scared this time. I just read that atoms can't be destroyed. So if the atoms that made up you one day reformed in the next universe into a copy of you would that not have the same consciousness?

As Paleo pointed out, atoms can be destroyed. Further, your atoms do not make you, you. They are being constantly cycled out for new ones. The atoms that make up your body were probably once in dinosaurs, dead people, the hearts of stars, dogshit, dirt, etc. So why would you assume that your atoms will come back together and reform you?

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:46 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Hi everyone. Sorry I'm back. I think I am suffering from a severe depression. I suddenly felt like this on the 1st of January and I haven't been able to shake it since. Even just getting up in the morning is hard.

One last question however I promise. I've read that every single atom and cell in your body is replaced over the course of your lifetime. So suppose my theory is correct and that we are reincarnated in another universe would it still be us if consciousness is a an electrical impulse and that electrical impulse was recreated. The fact that its a different body wouldn't matter as you are technically in a different body now.

Do any atoms remain with you for life. And even if they do if they reformed that wouldn't be you either? Are atoms eventually destroyed?


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:30 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
me34 wrote:
Hi everyone. Sorry I'm back. I think I am suffering from a severe depression. I suddenly felt like this on the 1st of January and I haven't been able to shake it since. Even just getting up in the morning is hard.

One last question however I promise. I've read that every single atom and cell in your body is replaced over the course of your lifetime. So suppose my theory is correct and that we are reincarnated in another universe would it still be us if consciousness is a an electrical impulse and that electrical impulse was recreated. The fact that its a different body wouldn't matter as you are technically in a different body now.

Sorry to hear about the depression. I've been dealing with clinical depression for a decade now. Just going to work everyday feels like a huge task, so I know how that goes.

Anyways, What you just described sounds like the teletransportation paradox or teletransport paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox

From the link:
Quote:
In Reasons and Persons, Parfit asks the reader to imagine entering a "teletransporter", a machine that puts you to sleep, then destroys you, breaking you down into atoms, copying the information and relaying it to Mars at the speed of light. On Mars, another machine re-creates you (from local stores of carbon, hydrogen, and so on), each atom in exactly the same relative position. Parfit poses the question of whether or not the teletransporter is a method of travel—is the person on Mars the same person as the person who entered the teletransporter on Earth? Certainly, when waking up on Mars, you would feel like being you, you would remember entering the teletransporter in order to travel to Mars, you would even feel the cut on your upper lip from shaving this morning.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:58 am

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
Falconer360 wrote:
me34 wrote:
Hi everyone. Sorry I'm back. I think I am suffering from a severe depression. I suddenly felt like this on the 1st of January and I haven't been able to shake it since. Even just getting up in the morning is hard.

One last question however I promise. I've read that every single atom and cell in your body is replaced over the course of your lifetime. So suppose my theory is correct and that we are reincarnated in another universe would it still be us if consciousness is a an electrical impulse and that electrical impulse was recreated. The fact that its a different body wouldn't matter as you are technically in a different body now.

Sorry to hear about the depression. I've been dealing with clinical depression for a decade now. Just going to work everyday feels like a huge task, so I know how that goes.

Anyways, What you just described sounds like the teletransportation paradox or teletransport paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox

From the link:
Quote:
In Reasons and Persons, Parfit asks the reader to imagine entering a "teletransporter", a machine that puts you to sleep, then destroys you, breaking you down into atoms, copying the information and relaying it to Mars at the speed of light. On Mars, another machine re-creates you (from local stores of carbon, hydrogen, and so on), each atom in exactly the same relative position. Parfit poses the question of whether or not the teletransporter is a method of travel—is the person on Mars the same person as the person who entered the teletransporter on Earth? Certainly, when waking up on Mars, you would feel like being you, you would remember entering the teletransporter in order to travel to Mars, you would even feel the cut on your upper lip from shaving this morning.


So I was right then. You are reincarnated in another universe as that blurb says you would still be you. Feel worse now.


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:01 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
It DOES NOT say that (do you have reading comprehension problems?), the quote you have mined is essentially asking the same question you are, it does not answer the question and says nothing about reincarnation or other universes. As there is no scientific reason for believing such a machine can exist or work, it is a thought experiment, not reality... Stop worrying and get on with your life...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:35 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
What Demons said^

It's a frigging thought experiment. My point in posting that was to show you that others have came up with similar thoughts and that they were nothing more than philosophical musing. There is no reason to believe that your atoms are who you are. You have atoms in you that once belonged to long dead organisms, does that make you one of those organisms? No it does not. So why should those atoms always be you after they were you? Simple answer, they aren't. Most likely when you die, that's it. End of game. Fade to black. You won't even know you have ceased to exist. I mean the universe existed for billions of years before you and you had recollection of that. You'll just cease to exist and eventually everything and any trace of you will be gone and forgotten. The universe will keep going.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:56 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
me34 wrote:

So I was right then. You are reincarnated in another universe as that blurb says you would still be you. Feel worse now.


Ok... You're annoying... Go see a shrink...


Top
me34
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:01 pm

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:54 am
Posts: 16

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
me34 wrote:

So I was right then. You are reincarnated in another universe as that blurb says you would still be you. Feel worse now.


Ok... You're annoying... Go see a shrink...


I'm sorry guys. I am going to see a shrink, but it might not be a few weeks before I can get an appointment. I have always been a superstitious type to be honest. Depression is a Demon.


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:37 am
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Glad to hear you'll look for help. It will be good for you and it will help you with your problems... Everybody does therapy these days... it's a crazy world.


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:51 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
Glad to hear you'll look for help. It will be good for you and it will help you with your problems... Everybody does therapy these days... it's a crazy world.

*Nearly everybody does therapy. :lol: I'm too damn stubborn to go.


@me34 - I hope seeing a psychiatrist helps. I know many people who have been helped and experienced a significant change for the better after starting therapy. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:50 am
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Falconer360 wrote:
M_Gabriela wrote:
Glad to hear you'll look for help. It will be good for you and it will help you with your problems... Everybody does therapy these days... it's a crazy world.

*Nearly everybody does therapy. :lol: I'm too damn stubborn to go.

Go!!! And if you don't like te therapist you find another one. That's how it works.


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:57 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
M_Gabriela wrote:
Glad to hear you'll look for help. It will be good for you and it will help you with your problems... Everybody does therapy these days... it's a crazy world.

*Nearly everybody does therapy. :lol: I'm too damn stubborn to go.

Go!!! And if you don't like te therapist you find another one. That's how it works.

I'm honestly fine without. After a decade dealing with it, I've gotten pretty good at managing my depression. I definitely would have been helped by therapy in the first five years though. Those were rough.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:01 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
I've suffered from depression for a while - I take pills and my therapy comes in six packs ;)

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:15 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
But this guy needs to see a person with whom he can speak...


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does an Infinite Universe imply a type of reincarnation  |  Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy...

Better living through chemistry ;)

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy