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One beer
Post  Post subject: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:17 am
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Not sure where to post this, (Mods please move it if required), but I have a question about animals.

(MODNOTE: I'm not sure it's the best place, but I put in Biology. This thread originally appeared in Coffee Shop thread "What are you doing right now?")


Out on my run yesterday, I was threatened by three dogs. This is a fairly common occurance when I go jogging, but I am getting pissed off with it.

I know how to prevent an actual attack - stand still, stand tall, face the dog, avoid eye contact etc. - but I am wondering what else I can do to protect myself and make the dogs go away. Carrying a baseball bat is not really practical while jogging, and is probably illegal in the UK, and kicking the dog might get me into trouble, despite the fact that it would be self defence.

I wondered if pepper spray or mace would work on dogs? Would it make them back off or would it enrage them and provoke an attack?



OB


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PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: What are you doing right now.  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:08 am

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Dog's noses tend to be much more sensitive than human noses for most stimuli. I imagine the pepper spray would work but will be much more painful for the dog than for a person... Whether the dog would lie down and whimper, run off howling or go into attack mode would be an empirical test, the results of which would be dog-dependent;) I've heard tell of high pitched whistles that act as dog deterrents, may be worth looking into so you don't get sued by dog owners for macing their pooch!

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and pepper spray?  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:14 am
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One beer wrote:
Not sure where to post this, (Mods please move it if required), but I have a question about animals.

Out on my run yesterday, I was threatened by three dogs. This is a fairly common occurance when I go jogging, but I am getting pissed off with it.

I know how to prevent an actual attack - stand still, stand tall, face the dog, avoid eye contact etc. - but I am wondering what else I can do to protect myself and make the dogs go away. Carrying a baseball bat is not really practical while jogging, and is probably illegal in the UK, and kicking the dog might get me into trouble, despite the fact that it would be self defence.

I wondered if pepper spray or mace would work on dogs? Would it make them back off or would it enrage them and provoke an attack?



OB


You could call to the "animal office" or what ever you call it so they would capture them. They may be dangerous for many people. Those dogs shouldn't be out there....


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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:52 pm
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Hi Gabriela,

I should have explained that all these dogs were being walked in a big park by their owners, but were running free, off the leash and did not obey when their owners tried to call them off me. I should also add that there were three seperate attacks by single dogs, not three dogs at once, (although I have had that too).

Having been subject to a scary dog running towards me snarling and barking, I get abuse if I try to tell the owners that their dog is dangerous and to keep their dog on a lead.

Thanks Demon. I will see if google knows anything.

OB


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:25 pm
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One Beer, when my mom was an animal control officer they used citronella spray like what I've linked to https://www.amazon.com/SprayShield-Animal-Deterrent-Spray-Belt/dp/B0002XKIV6 It's supposed to be as effective as pepper spray but without the bad side effects.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:23 pm
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You could just carry a few slices of bologna and toss them at the dogs faces as they approach. They'll probably learn to like you and approach you more ferquently, might even follow you all the way home, but they'll at least be more interested in that than your flesh :D

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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:51 pm
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Thanks for the link Falconer.

I saw the recommendation for citronella elsewhere too, and having read the reviews I think I will buy one citronella and one pepper spray.

OB


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PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:10 pm

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I wouldn't buy the pepper spray... If you use it you might get done for animal cruelty...

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:55 am
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PhDemon wrote:
I wouldn't buy the pepper spray... If you use it you might get done for animal cruelty...

agreed, The pepper spray could infact be damaging to the dogs at that concentration.

OB, When you say almost attacked, what exactly did the dogs do?

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:54 am

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One beer wrote:
Out on my run yesterday, I was threatened by three dogs. This is a fairly common occurance when I go jogging, but I am getting pissed off with it.


Really see some of the cultural differences above. In most US state you could not only use pepper spray if it was legal in that state, or use lethal force, say killing one with your concealed weapon. You should ALWAY have the right to defence oneself by whatever proportionate means you find necessary.


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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:35 pm
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Hi paleo;

The first was a big dog, Alsatian? which barked and ran at me but was luckily behind a fence - but of course had he got out - some do - it could have been very serious for me, so I had to keep my wits about me.

The second was a big dog like a husky or wolf derivative? which saw me from about 200m away across the park and ran fast towards me barking and snarling and stood about a meter away jumping around and kept barking and snarling and trying to get behind me.

The third was a small dog but which nevertheless did the same as the second.

I prevented actual attack by the advised strategy which is to stand still*, stand tall, turn if the dog gets behind you and don't make eye contact. This was sufficeint to avoid attack while I waited for the second and third owner(s) to reach their dog and put the lead on.

*Running triggers the chase response in some dogs, so one should stand still and keep calm. This takes a lot of balls to do when you are a meter away from a big barking, snarling dog who might bite you at any moment.

What also pisses me off is that some owners don't apologise and if I start having a go at them about their loose dangerous dog, they then have a go at me and never accept they were in the wrong.

Hi Demon, thanks for the warning, I don't yet know what our UK laws state. I will take both and use the citronella first. If that doesn't work or I am attacked, I will use the pepper - simply for personal protection. Fuck em.


OB


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:26 pm
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To be honest with the exception of the first one it sounds like the other two were trying to play and greet not to attack I work with dogs and in the pet industry and that sounds like to typical Play behavior and not I'm going to attack you Behavior

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:10 pm
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One beer wrote:
Hi Gabriela,

I should have explained that all these dogs were being walked in a big park by their owners, but were running free, off the leash and did not obey when their owners tried to call them off me. I should also add that there were three seperate attacks by single dogs, not three dogs at once, (although I have had that too).

Having been subject to a scary dog running towards me snarling and barking, I get abuse if I try to tell the owners that their dog is dangerous and to keep their dog on a lead.

Thanks Demon. I will see if google knows anything.

OB


Then I would just keep insulting the owner of the dog :lol: eye for an eye


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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:15 pm
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And I would use the pepper spray but against the owner if he gets "ill-humored" and never run again in that place :lol: :mrgreen:


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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:22 pm
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Quote:
To be honest with the exception of the first one it sounds like the other two were trying to play and greet not to attack I work with dogs and in the pet industry and that sounds like to typical Play behavior and not I'm going to attack you Behavior


Well possibly, but I don't think so - their body language was aggressive and dangerous. I have years of experience of uncontrolled dogs during jogging*. I have run with beach dogs in India and Tobago, and I can generally tell when dogs just have high spirits and want to run together and play with me or when they are agressive and confrontational. I was surrounded by a pack of about 6 dogs on the beach in Banjul who were very aggressive, and I was in a lot of trouble, but luckily a local fisherman saw what was happening and called them off.

Funnily enough, it is the dogs that are usually confined in gardens and houses in the UK that are the most aggressive. Dogs that I meet roaming free and not confined in India and the Caribbean are generally much more relaxed.

I just need some sort of defence without having to carry a big stick with me, and these sprays sound like just the job.

OB

*When I am 'downroute' on a layover from my flying job, I like to get out for a jog if I can.


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:54 pm
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I have been in the pet industry for over 5 years and I have had cats/dogs for all my life.

It really sounds like they were greeting. Different dogs have differing ways of expressing it. Im guessing the owners of the two dogs at the park were confused by your reaction to the dogs?

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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:00 pm
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No. As I say, I have years of experience of dogs during jogging, and can tell the difference between very-excited-and-wants-to-play, and Uh-Oh-I-have-got-to-be-very-careful-here. As I say I have run with wild (i.e. domestic breed dogs but with no owners) on beaches in India and Tobago, and they just want to run with me as a pack, which is fine by me. The group of 6 or 7 dogs I met on the beach in Banjul, West Africa, were aggressive and surrounded me. I was in big trouble until the fisherman called them off. I thanked him for doing so and shook his hand. On my way back along that same part of the beach later, I stopped running and walked slowly past the dogs. They did not even come over to me.

I watch Ceasar Milan's (sp?) programs and learn as much as I can about dog psychology.

The owners in the UK park knew their dogs were being aggressive, but having said that, they underestimate how bad it is for strangers to be threatened by their dog. They usually cannot bring themselves to apologise, (which also really pisses me off), but you can tell they know. The owner of the second dog I met the other day, was apologetic and said if he had seen me he would have put the dog on a lead. When I have just been threatened by a dog, I am not in the mood to be polite and pleasant with owners, so I didn't bother saying that if his dog was that aggressive, it should never be off the lead in a public place. But as I say he did at least apologise. The third dog's owner did not apologise, so I called her on it. All I got was a load of verbal abuse, which is sadly common place, and typical.

By the way, I always say "thank you" to the minority of owners who do restrain their dogs and put them on a lead well before the dog gets any ideas. And in fact that very thing happened later on, during the same run, when an owner ahead of me on a woodland path stopped and secured her dog and waited for me to pass. I said thank you to her and said I wished all dog owners were as considerate as her.

OB


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:49 pm

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Is there a facebook page for the area you live in? You could raise the issue on it and dog owners would become more aware of the problem .It might apply more to runners than other members of the public.

If dog owners are aware of possible sanctions or consequences they may take greater care.

You could approach the local authority and they might put up posters...


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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:49 am
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Good ideas.

I am not on facebook, but I have been considering writing to a local free paper to remind dog owners of their responsibilities.

A lot of owners - almost all of them from my experience - have never trained their dog to come when called. They are also not aware that a dog that threatens a person and makes that person think that they are being attacked or that an attack is highly likely, is classed by UK law as a dangerous dog. Dangerous dogs should be kept restrained at all times, but whenever I point this out to owners I just get verbal abuse.

I am tired of this bullshit, and of having to always look out for dogs and having to stand still and wait for an ignorant owner to come and pull the dog away. So if I can just spray some Citronella or pepper spray at the dog and continue on my way, that will be much easier for me.

I will check the law and get myself some spray.

OB


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:56 am
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it's something I've noticed with dog owners : they appear to be under the misapprehension that because their dog knows its place in the pecking order inside their family environment, and behaves in a subservient there, it will do so to strangers outside this environment as well

they misinterpret aggressive or threatening behaviour as being merely boisterous - it's a form of blindness that means they're caught unawares when it transforms in active aggression and their so-called placid dog attacks / bites other people or dogs

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:14 am

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marnixR wrote:
it's something I've noticed with dog owners : they appear to be under the misapprehension that because their dog knows its place in the pecking order inside their family environment, and behaves in a subservient there, it will do so to strangers outside this environment as well

they misinterpret aggressive or threatening behaviour as being merely boisterous - it's a form of blindness that means they're caught unawares when it transforms in active aggression and their so-called placid dog attacks / bites other people or dogs

Also perhaps they interpret a criticism of their dog as a criticism of themselves.They personally would never do(or admit to doing) the sort of thing their dog is being accused of and so they deflect.

Of course there may be a parallel with the legal advice given to all drivers when involved in an accident on the roads .Never admit you were wrong even if you were.

The dogs may get a "talking to " later for all I know ;)


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:34 pm
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still, sometime I have trouble believing reassurances that "he's harmless" when it's far from clear that this is the case - as I said they seem to have trouble perceiving their dog's behaviour as it is perceived by an outsider

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:53 pm

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marnixR wrote:
still, sometime I have trouble believing reassurances that "he's harmless" when it's far from clear that this is the case - as I said they seem to have trouble perceiving their dog's behaviour as it is perceived by an outsider

A white lie. The dog owner knows what the dog "really" thinks? Lie a partner thinks it will change the character of the other half.

It is also acceptable for people to say that they love their pet more than people don't forget.

They treat the pet like another member of the family and of course will "stand up for it".

I am not overly critical I hope. If I had a pet I would be the same,no doubt.


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shlunka
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:16 pm

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Huge legal difference over here in my little nook of Eastern US. If a dog is not on a leash and on my property I can just shoot it outright if it poses a threat to me, my pets, or my property/livestock. I don't own a dog, love me but don't have the time or money, but have dogsitted plenty over the years and lived with roommates or stayed with people that had large (and aggressive...) dogs. Your best move was to not let the dog behind you, eye contact can be a mixed bag along with making loud noises (the dogs may have been acting defensively, you said there was a fence?) Onbiously you couldn't carry a bat, but if there's trees anywhere around there then there are little natural bats laying all over the place.

I was taking leaves for a fellow a few years ago when a felt a violent push against my back. When I turned around there was a dog snapping and snarling. So I bashed it upside the head with the rake and it whimpered off. Sometime later, I met the man who was the owner, he was playing with the dog with a broom handle. This dog wasn't being aggressive, I just happened to be carrying its favorite toy. Dog behavior is very complicated, and even the most obvious signs of aggression need to be taken with a grain of salt.

As far as mace? I'm not sure how it'd work, I once kicked a dog in the face (it nipped at my legs unprovoked) and it just went into a frenzy towards my foot until a friend of mine helped me subdue the dog on the ground, so I couldn't recommend kicking either, especially with running shoes on (I had boots). If you feel there's a real danger to your life, I'd suggest carrying a pocket knife and be ready to find a stick if a dog behaves dangerously toward you. The knife wouldn't prevent wounds, but it would certainly give you a last resort if you feel there's mortal danger.

I would most recommend finding another place to jog, if possible. Or raise awareness in the community about the dogs. Violence should be the last resort, it'd be a legal headache and a moral one at that.

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One beer
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:14 pm
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Thanks for the advice and thoughts.

The dog behind the fence did not concern me too much, as long as it did not get out. The two loose dogs were a concern, and all I could do was stand upright and keep them in front of me until the owners got to me and grabbed them. This method is the advice given on various websites, including the "dog whisperer" Caesar Milan, (sp?)

I have kicked a dog before, on its side and it whimpered and ran off, but as has been mentioned, this is a high risk strategy, since it could escalate the situation.

I had not run in this park before, but was 'caught' in the open a long way from any trees or sticks. I do carry a stick with me on runs sometimes, but it is a bit of a pain to be honest. I jog carrying hand weights, so with a stick as well it all starts to get a bit unwieldy.

If I do run in that park again, (which is unlikely, since it was miles from my house), I will pick up a stick before getting to the park.

Unfortunately I think carrying a knife is illegal in the UK, (not sure about a Swiss Army type), but using any knife I think would get me arrested and into big trouble.

OB


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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:09 am
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I like dogs so agree with some other posters that, hey the dog's just being friendly why don't you reciprocate.

But then I realize the dog's behaviour - even friendly - isn't acceptable by human standards. Imagine I run around a park shouting hey you at random people.


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PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:11 am

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... or sniffing their crotches :lol:

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DrKrettin
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:08 am
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I remember taking our Alsatian for a walk in the park, where some bloke was sunning himself lying on the grass. The dog just cocked his leg up and peed on the bloke's face. Some people have no sense of humour. :(


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:05 am

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PhDemon wrote:
... or sniffing their crotches :lol:


That might classed as Precedential behaviour.


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DrKrettin
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:15 am
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geordief wrote:
PhDemon wrote:
... or sniffing their crotches :lol:


That might classed as Precedential behaviour.


Surely you mean Presidential?


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:26 am

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DrKrettin wrote:
geordief wrote:
PhDemon wrote:
... or sniffing their crotches :lol:


That might classed as Precedential behaviour.


Surely you mean Presidential?


That is what I said . This so called site is SO STUPID.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Dogs and Pepper Spray  |  Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:45 pm
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