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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:40 pm

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Rory wrote:
Honestly, I'm beginning to feel sorry for Putin.

I very nearly choked on my evening glass of wine. :D


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:24 pm
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Let me ask my question again... now for the 3rd time:

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Tell us, Rory: Where precisely is the goalpost? What evidence would change your mind?

We have agreement from everyone who's seen it, including Republicans and conservatives who have a vested interest in the conclusions being false. It's unanimous amongst everyone except those directly benefiting from a denial of it.

So, what would it take for you to acquiesce to that conclusion given you're not able to get the clearance required to see the evidence for yourself?


Also, since you've reintroduced this, let me also return to this question for a second time since you evaded it, too:
iNow wrote:
Rory wrote:
Hillary has been PROVEN guilty, there is EVIDENCE.

No, she hasn't. What are you even talking about? Perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems to be another one of those narratives you accept despite it being disconnected from reality. Help me understand what specific guilt you're saying has been proven.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:27 pm
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wireless wrote:
You sound very much like a man on the back foot.

Sure, if you say so

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:25 pm
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wireless wrote:
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence , which oversees the 17 agency-strong U.S. intelligence community, does not entirely agree with the CIA assessment, of Russian hacking in the recent US elections.
It looks like Hillary Clinton will have to find something else to whine about.
Is that your final answer?

FBI in agreement with CIA that Russia aimed to help Trump win White House

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
Quote:
FBI Director James B. Comey and Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. are in agreement with a CIA assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election in part to help Donald Trump win the White House, officials disclosed Friday, as President Obama issued a public warning to Moscow that it could face retaliation.

New revelations about Comey’s position could put to rest suggestions by some lawmakers that the CIA and the FBI weren’t on the same page on Russian President Vladi­mir Putin’s intentions.

What was that about someone being on their heels?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:35 am
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The goalpost would be: show me the evidence. At least, show me some evidence.

Remember the evidence for WMD in Iraq, that we as civilians didn't have clearance to see, but which the intelligence agencies assured us was robust?

I don't know how you go about allocating trust, but I take past behaviour to be a strong indicator.

ttps://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/spy-agencies-flawed-information-saddam-wmds-iraq-chilcot

Chilcot Report concludes British intelligence services produced flawed information.

They will do anything to prop up the petrodollar.

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:58 am
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Rory wrote:
The goalpost would be: show me the evidence. At least, show me some evidence.

Remember the evidence for WMD in Iraq, that we as civilians didn't have clearance to see, but which the intelligence agencies assured us was robust?

I don't know how you go about allocating trust, but I take past behaviour to be a strong indicator.

ttps://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/spy-agencies-flawed-information-saddam-wmds-iraq-chilcot

Chilcot Report concludes British intelligence services produced flawed information.

They will do anything to prop up the petrodollar.

so your immediate responce is massive global conspiracy by numerous agencies with NO partisan boundaries at all. Your purposely sticking your head in the sand rory.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:26 am
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Rory wrote:
The goalpost would be: show me the evidence. At least, show me some evidence.

The data first released and shared with Wikileaks was provided by an aggregate twitter account created in Russia.

Someone contacted that account communicating in Romanian (since the profile said the owner was from Romania). The response that came back was clearly something translated by Google Translate from Russian to Romanian as evidenced by the awkward syntax.

The docs shared with Wikileaks were saved and sent using a version of Microsoft Word that is only available and used in Russia.

The style, frequency, and approach used (it's a specific type of what's known as "spear phishing") all matched past actions of known Russian hackers. The footprints were exactly the same.

There is evidence that the Russian government bankrolled several "troll farms" who were paid to spread fake news about Clinton day after day after day for months.

There are apparently high level western spies placed inside the Russian government who have confirmed those around them were involved on Putins order.

People with both the security clearance to see all evidence for themselves AND a vested interest in the findings being false have confirmed the conclusions.

President Obama has seen the evidence and in response using very stark terms openly threatened retaliation specifically against Russia (and most folks tend to agree he's...for his entire administration and even before... ALWAYS been a bit if a dove when it comes to foreign intervention and military use).

The FBI and the CIA and the US Air Force and other military teams.... essentially EVERY single US intelligence and security department... ones that don't play nice or generally even get along with each other... ones commonly considered rivals...have collectively confirmed the conclusions and agreed with the consensus.

Intelligence departments from Israel, Britain, and other European agencies from Germany and France and others have confirmed the conclusions.

On top of of ALL of this is mountains of stuff I've not even seen or heard of myself due to the fact that I'm not code word cleared or read into the analysis operation. The people who ARE, however, have been universal in their agreement.

Let's have some perspective here. The ONLY people doubting and casting shade on these findings are the ones that DIRECTLY and SUBSTANTIALLY benefit from pretending they're false (despite openly asking Russia to interfere with the election during the campaign itself)...Well... them, and people like you who have been convinced that some illuminati style massive coordinated global conspiracy is somehow a better explanation because it magically supports your personal biases and preconceptions.

Rory wrote:
They will do anything to prop up the petrodollar.

What's so frustrating to me, Rory, is that there's both truth and merit in the underlying point here about powerful interests and oil wealth putting their proverbial thumbs on various scales, but by applying that narrative as an all-encompassing, overly simplistic, uncritical, unthinking, monolithic explanation to EVERYTHING you see happening (as you've been so consistently doing for so long now), you relegate yourself unnecessarily to the realm of the tin foil hat brigade and surrender an already emaciated, tenuous, and shriveling credibility.

There's meat on that bone, Rory, and we can be allies on that point when properly applied and focused, but meat is not the only food in the larger pantry... petrodollars on their own cannot adequately account for the amazing vastness and texture of all of the bad things in the real world unfolding around us.

And let's briefly review your suggestion with logic alone... Let me fully accept as true your suggestion here for the sake of argument... If anything, a desire to prop up the petrodollar ONLY FURTHER REINFORCES the idea that Russia did this to support the goals of their own narrowly focused petrostate and oil-based economy.

Evolution is true. Climate change is real. The earth is not 6000 years old. Vaccines are safe. Relativity works. Homeopathy is bullshit. Astrology is nonsense. Russia (almost certainly on the order of previous KBG operative, Vladimir Putin himself) hacked the recent US presidential election.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:42 am
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Okay, I suppose there were WMD in Iraq, too. The intelligence services told you so, and the PM presented the findings to Parliament, and there was cross-party agreement that WMD were real. Get out your tin hat.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:26 am

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iNow wrote:
Rory wrote:
The goalpost would be: show me the evidence. At least, show me some evidence.

The data first released....... and preconceptions.

Rory wrote:
They will do anything to prop up the petrodollar.

What's so frustrating to me, Rory,...... presidential election.

Thanks,iNow A fair bit of information there. Circumstantial but damning ,it seems to me.


I do take the view that spy services ,including Russian do have license to cut corners and fight their own corner but we do not have a license to be self servingly disingenuous.

If Russia thought that Clinton was an existential threat to her ,then fair enough but Russia has to be called out on interfering in the democratic process both at home and abroad.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:54 am
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If Russia were really so concerned about Clinton, I'm sure they could have found more permanent ways to eradicate the threat. They wouldn't pussyfoot around the issue and they DEFINITELY wouldn't leave amateur footprints.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:58 am

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Rory wrote:
If Russia were really so concerned about Clinton, I'm sure they could have found more permanent ways to eradicate the threat. They wouldn't pussyfoot around the issue and they DEFINITELY wouldn't leave amateur footprints.

You seem to have it all sussed :roll:


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:59 pm
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That's because I do :D Seriously, I think people underestimate Russia's capabilities. If they wanted to take the US down, they would find more drastic ways than choosing between two electoral candidates. And secondly, they're not spotty-faced teenage kids hacking out of their parents' basement. They're a world superpower; they're not going to leave a breadcrumb trail.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:45 pm
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Dmitry Babich, "Clinton's memoir will read: Vladimir Putin, the spy who hacked me." :lol:

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:09 pm
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Let me ask my question again... now for the 4th time:

Quote:
Tell us, Rory: Where precisely is the goalpost? What evidence would change your mind?

We have agreement from everyone who's seen it, including Republicans and conservatives who have a vested interest in the conclusions being false. It's unanimous amongst everyone except those directly benefiting from a denial of it.

So, what would it take for you to acquiesce to that conclusion given you're not able to get the clearance required to see the evidence for yourself?


And this one for the 3rd time:
iNow wrote:
Rory wrote:
Hillary has been PROVEN guilty, there is EVIDENCE.

No, she hasn't. What are you even talking about? Perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems to be another one of those narratives you accept despite it being disconnected from reality. Help me understand what specific guilt you're saying has been proven.


If you can't answer or refuse to answer, at least be decent enough to acknowledge that. If nothing will change your mind, then you should acknowledge that, too.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:34 pm
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geordief wrote:
Thanks,iNow A fair bit of information there. Circumstantial but damning ,it seems to me.

I just learned this morning that the malware used to infect DNC computers was sending all of the information collected from those systems back to a Russian email address that was used in the past for earlier hacks interfering in the elections of other countries.

The software used was created in a Russian time zone with gaps during Russian holidays, and all on a keyboard using Russian cyrillic characters.

The CIA has also now shared high level classified materials with other intelligence agencies that were gained from the Kremlin itself and which confirm same.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 pm
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I've already answered your question, the one you claim to be posing for the 4th time. My goalpost is evidence. You then responded by listing information you have been told by the political elite.

In answer to the second question:

1. Use of private email server in public office
2. Donors to the Clinton Foundation gained special access to former president Bill Clinton
3. Clinton maintained closer relationship with Wall Street bankers than was made clear during the election campaign
4. Allegation that Clinton ordered the state assassination of a WikiLeaks member

Image

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:38 pm
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Rory wrote:
4. Allegation that Clinton ordered the state assassination of a WikiLeaks member


allegations are not facts

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:45 pm
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Inc allegations against Russia - good point

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:14 pm
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Rory wrote:
Inc allegations against Russia - good point

What exactly do you dispute about all of the facts that inow has already laid out

Other than you appear to have a vendetta against Clinton for her relationship to her husband it seems pretty obvious to me that you despise her and are looking for any reason to not to give her the benefit of the doubt

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:23 pm
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You said Clinton was guilty and that it'd been proven, Rory. I asked of what.

Rory wrote:
1. Use of private email server in public office

Not illegal. Every Secretary of State before her with access to the tech also used their private email for state business, as do most government officials still today.

Rory wrote:
2. Donors to the Clinton Foundation gained special access to former president Bill Clinton

And this makes her guilty of what, exactly? Are conflicts of interest important to you? If so, I've got some stuff to show you about Trump (who is probably using this rejection of intelligence findings to distract us from his own conflicts of interest... something he'd promised to address last week and cancelled instead).

Rory wrote:
3. Clinton maintained closer relationship with Wall Street bankers than was made clear during the election campaign

Okay, and what about this is illegal? You said she was guilty and that it'd been proven. I asked of what. You've failed with every example.

On this point specifically, maybe you believe it's a good thing that she didn't get elected and appoint several of those Wall Street bankers to the highest possible positions in her cabinet like Trump has done?

Rory wrote:
4. Allegation that Clinton ordered the state assassination of a WikiLeaks member

I see you're choosing to continue wearing the tin foil hat.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:52 pm
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These acts may not be illegal but they are certainly dubious; they are not moral acts.

Likewise, Tony Blair was never charged with war crimes. Technically he never served time behind bars, but that doesn't negate the fact that he is responsible for the needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Legal ≠ moral

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:56 pm
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iNow, we're never going to agree, so why don't we just stop trying?

The way we allocate trust is fundamentally too different.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:17 pm
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Rory wrote:
These acts may not be illegal but they are certainly dubious; they are not moral acts


are you one of these people who want to be governed by saints ?
and have you been so morally correct at all times for you to throw the first stone ?

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:34 pm
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Rory wrote:
iNow, we're never going to agree, so why don't we just stop trying?

The way we allocate trust is fundamentally too different.

You don't trust Hillary for her staying with bill, who had a CONSENTUAL ENCOUNTER. But you do trust donald, who openly advocates sexual assault and has been accused multiple times of rape.

You seriously need to reexamine your position.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:15 pm
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Rory wrote:
These acts may not be illegal but they are certainly dubious; they are not moral acts.
(...)
Legal ≠ moral

Let me remind you that it was you, not me, who introduced the terms "guilty" and "proven" when putting forth your argument.

You didn't say she failed to act morally. You said she was guilty, and I called out that claim since it's pure fantasy and obvious bullshit.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:07 am
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marnix
Everybody makes mistakes but it's imperative to try not to when the country's (and by extension, the world's) safety depends upon it. That's like excusing a bus driver who only closes his eyes on duty... what, are you a saint?

Paleoichneum
The encounter between Bill Clinton and Lewinsky may have been consensual but Clinton adamantly denied it on multiple occasions. Family of liars. When has Trump advocated sexual assault?

iNow
Okay - Tony Blair (apparently) did not do anything illegal. Is he a good man? Is he fit for public office?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:16 pm
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Rory wrote:
Tony Blair (apparently) did not do anything illegal. Is he a good man? Is he fit for public office?

Completely irrelevant to anything we've been discussing. You very clearly asserted that Hillary Clinton was guilty and that it'd been proven. When called out for spouting complete nonsense, you did little more than try moving the goal posts and changing the subject. Your red herrings won't be chased. Not by me, anyway.

Rory wrote:
The encounter between Bill Clinton and Lewinsky may have been consensual but Clinton adamantly denied it on multiple occasions. Family of liars. When has Trump advocated sexual assault?

As paleoichneum has noted, you seriously need to reexamine your position.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/all-the ... sault.html
Quote:
Trump has been accused of harassment and assault by a number of women, with several coming forward to share their harrowing stories (...) The Cut has compiled a list of all the new allegations against Trump, as well as past accusations of assault, harassment, and discrimination by women.
(...)
In a New York Times report published October 12, Trump was accused of fondling the breasts of Jessica Leeds when she was 38 years old.
(...)
In 2005, receptionist Rachel Crooks was allegedly assaulted by Trump in the elevator at Trump Tower. She was working as a receptionist for a real-estate firm in the building when she ran into Trump in the elevator. After they shook hands, he allegedly refused to let go, kissed her on the cheeks, and also on the mouth.
(...)
Former Miss USA contestant Temple Taggart McDowell claims Trump kissed her on the lips on at least two occasions without consent when she was just 21 years old.
(...)
Newly emerged footage from CBS shows Trump talking about a 10-year-old girl’s physical appearance. In the tape, Trump joked: “I’ll be dating her in ten years. Can you believe it?”
(...)
Trump assaulted [Stoynoff] and forcibly kissed her in 2005
(...)
Donald Trump groped [McGillivray ] 13 years ago (...) “All of a sudden I felt a grab, a little nudge. I think it’s Ken’s camera bag, that was my first instinct. I turn around and there’s Donald.
(...)
Miss Washington USA Cassandra Searles claimed Trump grabbed her ass and invited her back to his hotel room, according to Rolling Stone. She called Trump a “misogynist” and accused him of treating women like cattle.
(...)
Four women who competed in the 1997 Miss Teen USA beauty pageant have accused Trump of walking into their dressing room while the contestants were changing
(...)
Makeup artist Jill Harth filed a lawsuit against Trump in 1997, accusing him of cornering her and groping her in his daughter’s bedroom. (...) [Trump] pulled her into one of his children’s bedrooms, pushed her up against the wall, groped her, and tried to get under her dress again. Harth has accused him of “attempted rape.”
(...)
In depositions for their contentious divorce case, Ivana Trump accused her then-husband of rape.
(...)
Forty-five minutes after Trump sat down next to Swedish model Vendela Kirsebom, Carter claims she came over to his table, almost in tears, begging him to move her. “It seems that Trump had spent his entire time with her assaying the ‘tits’ and legs of the other female guests and asking how they measured up to those of other women, including his wife,” Carter wrote. ‘“He is,’ she told me, in words that seemed familiar, ‘the most vulgar man I have ever met.’”


There are countless more. The above is just a quick sample to make my point about the blatant hypocrisy, doublethink, and willful ignorance you're displaying here.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:08 pm
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I don't know if any of those things are true. They are allegations. If there is any credibility to the cases then you would expect at least one of the cases to have resulted in charges. Don't forget how wealthy Trump is and how desperate/immoral a minority of women can be.

Either way, I don't think either of this year's US candidates were positive role models. It's a case of choosing the one who can fix the most fundamental problem in society. The most fundamental problem is the economy. Clinton cannot fix that, all she's got is a currency printer.

Answer yes or no: does the point about Blair illustrate the distinction between legality and morality? Answer yes, and there is the relevance for the Clinton case. Answer no, and you're lying. :D

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:40 pm
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See previous comment re: not chasing red herrings

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:16 pm
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Also see how far you are going to ignore the major number of women, plus footage of trump talking about it, that you are doing Rory. Trump is the embodiment of everything you hate about men. And yet you gloss it all over because you think bill is "bad"

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:49 pm
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Maybe Trump has a misogynistic attitude, I don't know. All I see is a bunch of women making allegations against a multi-millionaire, and no charges have been brought. Go figure.

He represents change, he at least recognises the anger of the populace, the left wing across the West stopped representing the working and middle classes a long time ago. But they still won't do the honourable thing and p**s off, even when the working man says, "you don't understand me".

Hence, yes, I still support Trump.

iNow, avoiding a red herring or an argument you can't win?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:28 pm
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Rory wrote:
iNow, avoiding a red herring or an argument you can't win?

A red herring, precisely as I said the last two times

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:04 pm
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Rory wrote:
Maybe Trump has a misogynistic attitude, I don't know. All I see is a bunch of women making allegations against a multi-millionaire, and no charges have been brought. Go figure.

The hypocrisy here is staggering. You willingly blame the women that have made allegations and lawsuits against Trump, because of "how desperate/immoral a minority of women can be." But yet you put good faith in the "4. Allegation that Clinton ordered the state assassination of a WikiLeaks member." :lol: And won't even put any faith in charges that Russia interfered in the US elections through hacking despite the evidence that Inow stated.

My point is that you are willing to cling to every negative thing reported about Clinton or American Democrats in general, while actively excusing the negative things about Trump.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:18 pm
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As I've said previously, there are many negative aspects of Trump. There are many negative aspects of Clinton. It's not my fault that those two are the best America can achieve. We have to pick between the two. I choose Trump because he recognises the plight of the working and middle classes.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:24 pm
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I haven't seen evidence against Trump and I don't trust cases in which no charges are brought.

I haven't seen evidence against Russia and I don't trust the CIA.

I haven't seen evidence against Clinton (on the WikiLeaks murder) and I do trust Assange.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:36 pm
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you realise that who you trust merely reflects your own prejudices ?

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:35 pm

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marnixR wrote:
you realise that who you trust merely reflects your own prejudices ?



Indeed trusting a traitor before numerous independent intelligence agencies says much....


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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:13 pm
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Rory wrote:
I haven't seen evidence against Trump and I don't trust cases in which no charges are brought.

I haven't seen evidence against Russia and I don't trust the CIA.

I haven't seen evidence against Clinton (on the WikiLeaks murder) and I do trust Assange.

You have seen the evidence. Your just bluntly IGNORING it since it does not confirm what you want to believe. Rory you have been asked to respond to the presented data, you have not. Why should we tolerate it and not point out your hypocracy?

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:49 pm

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iNow wrote:
wireless wrote:
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence , which oversees the 17 agency-strong U.S. intelligence community, does not entirely agree with the CIA assessment, of Russian hacking in the recent US elections.
It looks like Hillary Clinton will have to find something else to whine about.
Is that your final answer?

FBI in agreement with CIA that Russia aimed to help Trump win White House

?

Please tell me what evidence you have, that Putin put the Donald into the Whitehouse. Quite a few things, that are allegedly being said by anonymous people from the security services of the USA, to the national media cannot be confirmed or denied by the said security services. The Democrats lost, so someone has been cheating.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:27 pm
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Irrelevant to my point. You were clearly grasping at straws and suggesting that Clapper didn't agree with the findings of the CIA. I shared that he, in fact, actually does agree. End of exchange.

You are choosing partisanship over statesmanship. Sad.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:12 pm
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marnix
My sense of trust is informed by analysis of past behaviour; yours, apparently, by a short memory.

MI6 and CIA were told before invasion that Iraq had no active WMD: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... wmd-claims

"Wolfy, wolfy! There be a big fat wolfy!"

What does the fox say?



I haven't seen any evidence. I've read claims that iNow has regurgitated, ultimately, from the intelligence agencies.

Evidence is a band on a Western blot. Evidence ISN'T a post-doc saying "I've seen the blot with my own two eyes, and expression increases five-fold".

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:31 pm
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Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY :D

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:09 am
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Rory wrote:
Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY :D

ANNNNNND you still avoid the data provided.

You are being a moron Rory, and acting like everyone else is on the payroll if they do not see the truth.

Why are we putting up with this?

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:14 am
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Rory wrote:
Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY :D

Overall less people still voted for him than for Hillary. So he clearly doesn't represent the will of the majority.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:08 am
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Rory wrote:
Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy
Quote:
democracy
a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /95612570/
Quote:
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016 by almost 2.9 million votes (2,864,978) or 2.1%, which means that Donald Trump will be the president who has lost the popular vote by the widest margin in history.
http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-sand ... l-college/
Quote:
Trump is down in the popular vote by roughly 2.8 million votes — which is five times greater than the previous record for a popular vote defeat on record in presidential election history.

He was able to secure a majority of Electoral Votes in November by just 77,764 votes spread across Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Investigative journalist and author Greg Palast noted that in Michigan alone, approximately 75,000 ballots went uncounted.


More hypocrisy, doublethink, and willful ignorance, perhaps?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:21 am
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Paleoichneum: what data? And I'm not making you read the thread. It's a free world, if you don't like what I post, you're not obliged to read.

iNow and Falconer: I'm well aware that Trump didn't win the popular vote. If you could post the definition of indirect democracy, that would be really useful. As in the UK, sometimes the party that ultimately wins does not secure the popular vote. It's still democracy.

My point is that finally the illusion that the left wing can spit out their pacifier when they don't win, and demand that everything be re-counted and re-jigged until their candidate is in office, has died. Left wing LOST.

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:27 am

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Falconer360 wrote:
Rory wrote:
Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY :D

Overall less people still voted for him than for Hillary. So he clearly doesn't represent the will of the majority.

Whatever Donald Trump represents in terms of electioneering is now irrelevant, because he won a democratic election in the USA. Democracy is alive and well. :D


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:59 pm
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Rory wrote:
I choose Trump because he recognises the plight of the working and middle classes.

Exploiting and demagoguing it versus actually doing something to improve it are very different things.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/12 ... -president
Quote:
This morning, the Council of Economic Advisers released the 71st annual Economic Report of the President. This year’s Report reviews the economic record of the Obama Administration, focusing both on how successful policies have promoted economic growth that is robust and widely shared and on the work that remains in the years ahead.

Useful charts within the link.


Rory wrote:
My point is that finally the illusion that the left wing can spit out their pacifier when they don't win, and demand that everything be re-counted and re-jigged until their candidate is in office, has died. Left wing LOST.

Why do you have to keep making this partisan and inserting us/them tribal wedges at every opportunity?

Many of us are simply commenting on the broader problems with our system exemplified by votes going uncounted, losing by 3 million votes yet still "winning" the office, and related issues with foreign interference and hacking. Those are facts, regardless of how you feel about them and these should be concerns to us all, regardless of ideology and location on the political spectrum. Yet your choice instead is to dismiss others highlighting these concerning areas as being whiners and crybabies who need a "pacifier." Pathetic.

The left wing didn't lose. Decency did.

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:26 pm
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wireless wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
Rory wrote:
Trump won the electoral college vote. Omg, it's almost like America is a DEMOCRACY :D

Overall less people still voted for him than for Hillary. So he clearly doesn't represent the will of the majority.

Whatever Donald Trump represents in terms of electioneering is now irrelevant, because he won a democratic election in the USA. Democracy is alive and well. :D

Only people is wrong... hehehe. Just joking...


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: It's Putin, stupid!  |  Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:49 pm
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Milo's message to iNow



It always was a partisan accusation: Hillary claimed that Putin personally ordered the hacking after she made a derogatory comment about the Russian elections. I can just picture Putin in his bedroom, making a Hillary voodoo doll :lol: Girl needs to get over herself.

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