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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:07 pm
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I must say that as names are added in posts for Trump's cabinet, I'm starting to get filled with dread

never mind that you have a creationist in charge of education, or someone in charge of environment who thinks global warming is a hoax, but someone who is willing to press the nuclear button ?

it brings me back to bad old days of Reagan's first term when he was openly musing about the possibility of a restricted nuclear war in Western Europe - with "tactical" nuclear weapons that each of them are way stronger than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki

maybe it's all Trump bluster, but what if someone calls his bluff

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:10 pm
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Same here. The only person who doesn't worry me is General Mattis. He at least isn't some yes man who will allow Trump to push him around. He also only resorts to violence when diplomacy fails. He is also very well read and required his marines to be well read in the culture and history in regions that they deployed. Before deploying in Iraq, he had his marines go through cultural sensitivity training. He's also opposed to torture. The only worrying thing is his stance on Iran, but I think he is smart enough not to encourage instigating Iran. And really Iran is no ally to the US.

Did you see this video on how the 25th Amendment could prevent a Trump Presidency and give us a Pence Presidency?
http://www.snopes.com/can-the-25th-amendment-prevent-a-trump-presidency/

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:18 pm
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Quote:
Falconer wrote:
Did you see this video on how the 25th Amendment could prevent a Trump Presidency and give us a Pence Presidency?


Yeah, if you want to enrage the electorate even further. A lot of Americans voted for Trump precisely because he represents a break from the mediocrity of the political elite.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:30 pm
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Rory wrote:
Quote:
Falconer wrote:
Did you see this video on how the 25th Amendment could prevent a Trump Presidency and give us a Pence Presidency?


Yeah, if you want to enrage the electorate even further. A lot of Americans voted for Trump precisely because he represents a break from the mediocrity of the political elite.

Trump is already enraging the electorate by reneging on a lot of his promises. The wall is now just a fence in some places, the swamp is not being drained, he is not pursuing Clinton (“Look, I want to move forward, I don’t want to move back. And I don’t want to hurt the Clintons. I really don’t,” said Trump, adding that Clinton “suffered greatly in many different ways.”), he no longer thinks climate change is a Chinese backed hoax and that man may have a role in it, and he wants to keep the popular parts of the ACA(obamacare). All of which I find amusing. Anyways, I don't think Congress really gives a shit what the electorate think, if they decide Trump needs to go, they will undoubtedly try and get Pence to start the process of the 25th Amendment to remove Trump, especially since Pence is much more in line with the party than Trump is.

Frankly the idea of Pence as President scares me more than Trump. Pence honestly believes you can electrocute the gay away.

Also Rory, don't you find it alarming that Trump has placed a creationist in charge of the department of education?

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:20 pm

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Falconer360 wrote:
Same here. The only person who doesn't worry me is General Mattis. He at least isn't some yes man who will allow Trump to push him around. He also only resorts to violence when diplomacy fails. He is also very well read and required his marines to be well read in the culture and history in regions that they deployed. Before deploying in Iraq, he had his marines go through cultural sensitivity training. He's also opposed to torture. The only worrying thing is his stance on Iran, but I think he is smart enough not to encourage instigating Iran. And really Iran is no ally to the US.

Did you see this video on how the 25th Amendment could prevent a Trump Presidency and give us a Pence Presidency?
http://www.snopes.com/can-the-25th-amendment-prevent-a-trump-presidency/


I love this guys name James " Mad Dog " Mattis , he sounds like a real pistol. I like him already.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... trumps-ne/


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:42 pm
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It's revealing that you think Congress don't care about the opinions of the electorate - that's what is wrong with Western democracy, that's why people are angry, and that's one of the reasons Trump has been successful.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:43 pm
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Tbh I've given up caring about education - there are so many systemic problems that it's a waste of time.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:57 pm
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Rory wrote:
Tbh I've given up caring about education - there are so many systemic problems that it's a waste of time.

Okay fine if you've given up on education what about this facet of science: Trump has announced an anti-EPA climate denier as the head of the EPA. Scott Pruitt has even sued the EPA numerous times.

Rory for someone who lives and breathes science, I don't know how you can defend Trump in other threads, when he has just delivered two gut punches to the scientific community.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:14 pm
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Compartmentalisation, probably.

But also I think there are more pressing/immediate problems - the economy and democracy.

It's a bit like being more concerned with the colour of the wine glasses on the Titanic, than the fact that the liner is sinking.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:50 pm
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That's the thing though, education and climate change directly influence the economy and democracy. None of these exists in a bubble. They're all interconnected.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:47 am
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They are all interconnected, but none of the mainstream candidates have fixed those problems in any noticeable way. We still have central bankers artificially pumping the stock market, stagnant wages, rise in the cost of living, proliferation of low paid part time low skilled temporary jobs. The US is (will always be?) dependent upon the consumption of fossil fuels for its wealth.

I liked Obama as an individual very much, he's probably the smoothest US President to date, but I can't say that he fixed any of these problems in any noticeable way.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:06 am
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Just because the current administration hasn't "fixed" the problems, it doesn't mean we should sit idly by and let someone destroy the progress that was made or to just generally make the problems worse. In the last eight years, the US has made a lot of steps towards reducing it's carbon footprint, and to use more renewable energy, this upcoming administration is going to set that progress back. This alone is enough to be concerned and to speak out against.

I want to address your statement of low paid part time "temporary jobs," in depth real quick. Many people have this attitude that service jobs or part time jobs are a bad thing. Some people prefer part time jobs, because they don't have the time for a full time job. Further part time jobs will always be a thing. Our society depends on them. I hire seasonal part time staff for instance. This is because we don't have funding or the workload to justify having them year round. Also four part time employees provide more scheduling flexibility than having two full time staff members. I'm able to schedule around them being sick or needing time off for personal life things. As for service industry jobs, we really need to dump this 1960s notion that these jobs are just for teenagers or college students who are working towards a career. These jobs can become a career path on par with those of college graduates. My cousin started out as a bag boy at Albertsons (grocery store chain) as a teenager, he never went to college, instead he focused on his band in his off time. He worked his way up the ladder there, becoming a cashier, then a department head, to assistant manager, to now being the branch head of an entire store. He's now married, owns several cars, a couple motorcycles, a house, thousands of dollars in guitars and related equipment, and makes more than many college grads that I know. Now I now you didn't specifically single these types of jobs out, but many people arguing your position do. My point is simply that some people don't want traditional careers, and that these jobs are not to be looked down upon. Personally I believe that they deserve to be paid more and here in Washington they soon will be.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:11 am
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like

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:41 am
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So he sold out on his passion and musical identity - I wouldn't call that an achievement.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:24 pm
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Sure sounds to me like he's found a way to enjoy his passion while still thriving elsewhere in his life. Just because you're sour on life doesn't mean everyone else is.

Really doesn't matter, though, because you're actively ignoring the primary point being made by Falconer.

Labor being part-time or gig based does not mean it's inherently bad. It does not mean it's less worthy. People frequently look down on those positions and should stop doing that. You were being asked to recognize and acknowledge this.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:13 pm
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Inow got what I was saying.

My cousin used an "undesirable" job that is looked down on to gain himself enough of a standing that he is able to indulge his passions for both music and for vehicles. He basically has a recording studio in his house at this point.

Another example of a typical looked down upon job being way better than you'd expect. I live in a small rural town, where we still have a family run grocery store, Anderson's Grocery, it's over 100 years old. It's also one of the best places to work in the county. They offer their employees better benefits than what the county employees get. They've actually received awards for Excellence in Operations from state organizations. They even instituted profit-sharing through employee bonuses and 401(k) programs. They also established the Mary French Foundation in 2007 in honor of an employee who died of breast cancer. Yet a lot of people still look down on those sorts of jobs as being only a temporary fix.

As I have told people elsewhere we need to recognize that pretty much all jobs are equal importance, and the ones that are more important generally aren't ones you would think of. A paleontologist is no more important than a janitor for instance. Without the janitor, the paleontologist would either have to take away from his work time to clean, or to just live in filth.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:08 am
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You are both making it sound like almost everybody employed in part time low paid temp jobs have found their utopia. I think the exact opposite is true: most of those employees want full time high paid permanent work, but cannot find it due to the phoney nature of the artificial "recovery". But who cares - 4 part time jobs in place of 1 full time job looks like job creation, so the government can vainly brandish those job numbers. Bravo!

Being a janitor and being a palaeontologist are equally important but not equally enjoyable or fulfilling. I've never before encountered a person who, as a child, wished to one day be a janitor. Prove me wrong if you want to - jack in your current job and become a janitor, you know, since they're both "equal". To me it just sounds like you're trying to erode the right of people to express their unhappiness. I.e. if you're happy in your full time well paid permanent high skilled meaningful job then that's enough for you - just try to convince the others that they should be happy in their miserable jobs because what they're doing is noble. Noble is not always the same as fulfilling.

In fact, that entire position is the divide, in my opinion, between the left and right at the moment. The left consists (for obvious reasons) of ethnic minority citizens and then the comfortably middle class who may see but don't feel any issues with the economy. The right consists of workers who feel no real benefit from work, either in terms of remuneration or life meaning.

Hence I'm supporting Trump.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:57 pm
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Rory wrote:
You are both making it sound like almost everybody employed in part time low paid temp jobs have found their utopia.

Where did I do that? How so? Be specific. Use the handy quote feature offered by our site to provide direct evidence.

Rory wrote:
To me it just sounds like you're trying to erode the right of people to express their unhappiness.

Where did I do that? How so? Be specific. Use the handy quote feature offered by our site to provide direct evidence.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm
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Rory wrote:
You are both making it sound like almost everybody employed in part time low paid temp jobs have found their utopia. I think the exact opposite is true: most of those employees want full time high paid permanent work, but cannot find it due to the phoney nature of the artificial "recovery". But who cares - 4 part time jobs in place of 1 full time job looks like job creation, so the government can vainly brandish those job numbers. Bravo!


Never said that they found their utopia. Just that not everyone desires work that requires a degree and that those jobs are performing necessary tasks for society. I even said that those part time temporary jobs deserve higher pay. I'm a fan of raising the minimum wage, since the whole purpose of the minimum wage was for it to be a living wage, but it hasn't kept up with the cost of living over the decades.

Further I never said jack shit about how 4 part time jobs in place of 1 full time job looks like good job creation. Never even touched on that. I just said why I hire part time staff.

Quote:
Being a janitor and being a palaeontologist are equally important but not equally enjoyable or fulfilling. I've never before encountered a person who, as a child, wished to one day be a janitor. Prove me wrong if you want to - jack in your current job and become a janitor, you know, since they're both "equal". To me it just sounds like you're trying to erode the right of people to express their unhappiness. I.e. if you're happy in your full time well paid permanent high skilled meaningful job then that's enough for you - just try to convince the others that they should be happy in their miserable jobs because what they're doing is noble. Noble is not always the same as fulfilling.


Yet again you miss the point. People are more than welcome to express their unhappiness with their jobs. I just wanted to illustrate the point that we shouldn't be looking down on these sorts of jobs, like that the people working them are failures or lesser because they aren't working as a scientist or a professor or whatever. Frankly, I've been a janitor before and it really wasn't a bad gig. I would go back to being one in a heartbeat if i didn't feel like I was betraying my organization. I would actually be making more money as a janitor than I am currently. I just stick around at my job because I feel indebted to the organization for how much they've put into me to get me where I am, and there is no one that could replace me right now so by quitting I would be burning some big bridges.

Most people could care less if their job is fulfilling, they just care about making enough money to pay the bills and live. If those people in those low paid part time jobs were paid more, I bet they wouldn't be so miserable in their work. The other added benefit of paying them more is that they will feel more appreciated and get more fulfillment from their job which can motivate them to work harder.

TLDR: Pay the people in the low skill, low paid, part time and temp jobs more (an actual living wage) and they will be less miserable and have more sense of fulfillment.


Quote:
Hence I'm supporting Trump.


"We need more full time high paid positions, so I support the guy who has stated that he feels people already make too much money and that the minimum wage is too high." Makes perfect sense :roll:

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:07 pm
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Venturing momentarily closer to the actual thread topic...

Former Texas Governor, Rick Perry, was just picked to lead the Department of Energy. This department is interestingly one of the 3 that Perry vowed to eliminate during a 2011 presidential debate. It was the one he couldn't remember. Oops...

http://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2016/12/13/13936210/rick-perry-energy-department-trump
Quote:
“And I will tell you,” Perry said, “it is three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, Education, and the … what's the third one there? Let's see."

Then he stumbled. He couldn’t remember the third. When coaxed by other candidates and the moderator — did he mean the EPA, maybe? — he drew a blank. “Sorry,” he said as he grinned sheepishly at the cameras. “Oops.”

A few minutes later, Perry remembered — it was the Department of Energy he wanted to get rid of! That was it.

That brain fart ended Perry’s presidential aspirations in 2012. But it wasn’t the end of the story: On Tuesday, Donald Trump picked Rick Perry to lead the Energy Department, the very agency he once kinda sorta wanted to get rid of. And, while it’s not clear that Perry still wants to abolish the DOE, the climate-denying, fossil-fuel loving governor from Texas is likely to usher in major changes to this key agency.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:38 pm
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iNow wrote:
Venturing momentarily closer to the actual thread topic...

Former Texas Governor, Rick Perry, was just picked to lead the Department of Energy. This department is interestingly one of the 3 that Perry vowed to eliminate during a 2011 presidential debate. It was the one he couldn't remember. Oops...

http://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2016/12/13/13936210/rick-perry-energy-department-trump
Quote:
“And I will tell you,” Perry said, “it is three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, Education, and the … what's the third one there? Let's see."

Then he stumbled. He couldn’t remember the third. When coaxed by other candidates and the moderator — did he mean the EPA, maybe? — he drew a blank. “Sorry,” he said as he grinned sheepishly at the cameras. “Oops.”

A few minutes later, Perry remembered — it was the Department of Energy he wanted to get rid of! That was it.

That brain fart ended Perry’s presidential aspirations in 2012. But it wasn’t the end of the story: On Tuesday, Donald Trump picked Rick Perry to lead the Energy Department, the very agency he once kinda sorta wanted to get rid of. And, while it’s not clear that Perry still wants to abolish the DOE, the climate-denying, fossil-fuel loving governor from Texas is likely to usher in major changes to this key agency.

I wonder if Perry still wants to get rid of the Department now that he has been picked to lead it? :lol: He would be effectively firing himself and possibly do less damage than he would as the active head of it.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:05 pm
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I would just like to point out that the selection of Rick Perry directly contradicts with several of Rory's claims about Trump and about the problems that we face such as:
Rory wrote:
A lot of Americans voted for Trump precisely because he represents a break from the mediocrity of the political elite.

Rory wrote:
They are all interconnected, but none of the mainstream candidates have fixed those problems in any noticeable way. We still have central bankers artificially pumping the stock market, stagnant wages, rise in the cost of living, proliferation of low paid part time low skilled temporary jobs. The US is (will always be?) dependent upon the consumption of fossil fuels for its wealth.
[/quote]

Not only is Trump selecting cabinet positions from the "political elite" he is also ensuring that we will continue our love affair with fossil fuels, that wages will stay stagnant, and that bankers will continue doing the same things by selecting people like Rick Perry (big fossil fuel supporter), Rex Tillerson (chairman and CEO of ExxonMobil), Andrew Puzder (chief executive of low paying fast food chains), Scott Pruitt (ally of the fossil fuel industry), Steven Mnuchin (former Goldman Sachs executive, ie one of those bankers Rory hates), Elaine Chao (Labor sec under Bush and married to the republican senate majority leader Mitch McConnell), and Reince Priebus (chairman of the Republican National Committee, another political elite).

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:04 am
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Falconer360 wrote:
I wonder if Perry still wants to get rid of the Department now that he has been picked to lead it? :lol: He would be effectively firing himself and possibly do less damage than he would as the active head of it.

Well, Trump also nominated to his cabinet a guy who wants to eliminate the environmental protection agency to lead that organization, and also a woman who wants to replace investments in public education with vouchers to private schools to lead the department of education, and a person who doesn't support workers or the minimum wage to lead the dept of labor, and someone who wants to repeal healthcare coverage for over 20 million Americans to lead dept of health and human services, so...

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:16 am
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Falconer360 wrote:
Elaine Chao (Labor sec under Bush and married to the republican senate majority leader Mitch McConnell)

Her marriage to Mitch McConnell doesn't help your point. Her being a former Wells Fargo board member and raking in millions of dollars during the exact years they were opening scores of fake unrequested bank accounts for people merely to earn higher commissions and bonuses does.

She is also a former Director with Rupert Murdoch's News Corp, but that's only peripherally bad. Like many well intentioned others in the world, believe Rory's mistakenly bought into the story and narrative, be damned with the facts and reality actually taking place.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:27 pm
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iNow wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
Elaine Chao (Labor sec under Bush and married to the republican senate majority leader Mitch McConnell)

Her marriage to Mitch McConnell doesn't help your point. Her being a former Wells Fargo board member and raking in millions of dollars during the exact years they were opening scores of fake unrequested bank accounts for people merely to earn higher commissions and bonuses does.

She is also a former Director with Rupert Murdoch's News Corp, but that's only peripherally bad. Like many well intentioned others in the world, believe Rory's mistakenly bought into the story and narrative, be damned with the facts and reality actually taking place.

I don't think it hurts my point though. It just shows that she is already a part of the machine that Trump supporters despise. Although I admit that it would have bolstered my point to have replaced that with the Wells Fargo information. I was just doing brief snippets on each person though. I mean Rick Perry alone has enough bad baggage that we could write several paragraphs on it at least.

I'm kind of glad that Trump didn't choose McMorris-Rodgers as secretary of the Interior. With her being my representative, I've been voting against her for years now. Her fanboys would have been insufferable if she had been selected. Although Zinke worries me slightly because he's a real unknown. His website pushes the military service bit down your throat with an RPG, and he doesn't hold much in views other than faith and guns. Although he is at least opposed to selling off federal lands, he just wants them better managed. McMorris likes the idea of selling federal lands off.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:14 pm
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But I'm sure Trump and his team will be TOTALLY different!

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:55 pm
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iNow wrote:
But I'm sure Trump and his team will be TOTALLY different!

Image


sorry to rain on your parade, but that graph looks suspiciously like a random walk to me

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Last edited by iNow on Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:06 pm
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Of course chance plays a role, though it's somewhat remarkable how consistently that role has favored democratic presidents and disfavored republican presidents.

It's not just GDP, either. It's also the markets:

(click to enlarge)

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:25 pm
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As I have stated in a previous thread, Trump is inheriting a poisoned chalice beyond repair. Personally, I do not expect economic victories under Trump, because the real economy - less the asset bubbles (housing, stocks, automobiles) and on-paper economy - is tragic. That's why Trump won in the first place. When the nation is bankrupt, the populace aren't going to vote left - what are the government going to redistribute?

US = 20 trillion in the red + 127 trillion in unfunded liabilities

So, yes, the Republican terms will coincide with economic negativity, as the American people cling to the right to fix the dog's dinner served courtesy of Obama.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:22 pm
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Yeah, just like Obama set the terms for Nixon, Hoover, and Eisenhower. What a dick!

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:39 am
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Unlike yourself, I'm no longer static left/right, since parties on either side of the political spectrum are not monolithic entities and the socioeconomic realities they face each election are dynamic and, at times, stochastic.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:09 pm
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Rory wrote:
Unlike yourself, I'm no longer static left/right

Please. Just stop.

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:52 pm
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Rory wrote:

So, yes, the Republican terms will coincide with economic negativity, as the American people cling to the right to fix the dog's dinner served courtesy of Obama.

This is false and you should be aware of that. The entire world economy was tanked by GW Bush. and your precious data proves that, Obama stopped the recession in the US but you are blatantly lying and trying to say Obama did it.

Your level if disingenuity is disgusting.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:01 am
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Stopped the recession by monetising the debt?

By adding $9 trillion to the national debt?

With 1 in 7 Americans on food stamps?

A recovery in which people's real incomes have diminished?

In which people's finances got sicker - that recovery?

Thank you, Obama

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:54 am
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Rory wrote:
Stopped the recession by monetising the debt?

By adding $9 trillion to the national debt?

With 1 in 7 Americans on food stamps?

A recovery in which people's real incomes have diminished?

In which people's finances got sicker - that recovery?

Thank you, Obama

Cite your source that that is WORSE then what would have happened.

And ps, stop with the bullshit lie that real incomes have diminished, you have been SHOWN that is a lie you are repeating with not backing,

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Trump's team  |  Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:12 am
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I don't know who your sources are, Rory, but they're either badly mistaken or lying to you and doing a great disservice to your understanding of the world around you.
Rory wrote:
By adding 9 trillion (USD) to the national debt?

For those who prefer context, clarity, and accuracy:
Quote:
Annual federal deficits hit 1.4 trillion (USD) in fiscal year 2009. As we’ve documented elsewhere, Obama inherited most of that deficit and signed spending measures that contributed, at most, 203 billion (USD) to FY 2009’s red ink.

Since then, the yearly deficits have declined markedly. In fiscal year 2015, which ended last Sept. 30, the deficit was 438 billion (USD), a drop of 69 percent from FY 2009.

I'm well aware that debt and deficit are different and distinct, but debt can't shrink until deficit turns to surplus. Obama SIGNIFICANTLY decreased the deficit and got us MARKEDLY closer to the surplus outcome you appear to desire.

It should also be noted that every single year Obama submitted a budget and plan to further reduce deficits / increase growth, but the recalcitrant, obstructionist, and politically calculating congress failed to act on even one of Obamas submitted budgets during all of his years in office. Imagine what he could've achieved if he had partnership from the legislature.

Rory wrote:
With 1 in 7 Americans on food stamps?

For those who prefer context, clarity, and accuracy:
Quote:
The number of people receiving food stamps has dropped again — by just over 200,000 — since our last report [6 months ago, where we showed a drop of 180,000 since the report 6 months before that]. (...) As we noted when Republicans called Obama the “Food Stamp President,” 14.7 million people were added to the food-stamp rolls during George W. Bush’s time in office. By comparison, the net gain under Obama now stands at under 11.4 million — and the rolls continue to shrink.


Rory wrote:
A recovery in which people's real incomes have diminished?

For those who prefer context, clarity, and accuracy:
Quote:
Median household income has gone up 1,140 (USD), or 2 percent. The buying power of the average worker’s weekly paycheck is up 4.2 percent. (...) Overall inflation during Obama’s first seven years in office has been half the historical average, and has actually turned negative since our last report.
(...)
Middle-income households were bringing in more money last year than they were the year before Obama entered office. Median household income last year jumped up 5.2 percent, to 56,516 (USD) , Census reported. That was the largest percentage increase in 17 years. In “real” income, adjusted for inflation, that was 1,140 (USD) more than in 2008 — an increase of 2 percent under Obama.
(...)
Real Weekly Earnings – The recovering economy, coupled with modest increases in prices, has boosted the buying power of weekly paychecks since Obama took office, especially in the last two years.

The BLS measure of average weekly earnings for all workers, adjusted for inflation and seasonal factors, was 4.2 percent higher in August than it was when Obama first took office. Most of that gain is recent. Real weekly wages are up 2.8 percent in the most recent 24 months.

Those figures include salaried managers and supervisors. But the gains have been even larger for rank-and-file workers. The BLS measure of inflation-adjusted average weekly earnings for production and nonsupervisory employees was 4.6 percent higher in August than when Obama first entered the White House.

Consumer Prices – Overall price inflation during Obama’s time in office has been less than half the historical average.

The average yearly rise in the Consumer Price Index under Obama has been just 1.7 percent, measured from December to December. That’s well under half the post-World War II average, according to BLS figures. From 1946 to 2008, the average December-to-December rise in the CPI was a bit more than 4 percent.

And inflation has slowed even as the economy has warmed up. In the most recent 12 months on record, ending in May, the CPI rose less than 1.1 percent.

For the first seven years and seven months of Obama’s time in office, the CPI has gone up by only 13.4 percent. In the eight years of the Bush administration, the CPI went up 20.7 percent.

These corrections along with other corrections of Rory's remedial mistakes and misrepresentations available here: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/obamas ... 16-update/

I've said it before and I will say it again:

If you have to lie or misrepresent the truth in order to argue your position, you should consider instead changing your position.

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