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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:51 pm
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somehow ,when it comes to Buddhism, people tend to think that they're not in the same league as Islam when it comes to feeling offended by unbelievers

apart from the fact that they treat muslims in Myanmar as badly as many Muslim countries do to other religious minorities, it now appears to be very easy to "disrespect" their religion

Myanmar jails tourist for unplugging speakers relaying sermon

imo it confirms my bias against religion that ALL religions are as intolerant as another when they're in a controlling position

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anticorncob28
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:00 am
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somehow ,when it comes to Buddhism, people tend to think that they're not in the same league as Islam when it comes to feeling offended by unbelievers

I myself was in that boat until recently when I watched this video by Secular Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uohAx_ctoME (the part about Buddhism starts at 10:30).

It's no surprise that religions aren't tolerant, for two reasons:
1) A religion that is tolerant of non-believers is not going to spread nearly as well as an aggressive one that is intolerant of non-believers.
2) Why would God create humans and decide, "My creation doesn't have to believe in me or obey my laws if they don't want to"? If you truly believe your religion is correct it makes sense that you think everybody else needs to believe it too.
I think that if any religion were actually true, everybody (or nearly everybody) would already believe it, and there would be no need for aggressive spreading or intolerance of or violence toward non-believers.

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scire
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:18 am

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Certainly, intolerance is not the only objection people have against religions. Passing on unsubstantiated beliefs from generation to generation retards intellectual growth and is a major theme among debates of religion. Even a peaceful religion that teaches falsehoods is detrimental.


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Daecon
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:23 am
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Extremists of any religion (or general philosophy) can be assholes.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:16 am
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anticorncob28 wrote:
2) Why would God create humans and decide, "My creation doesn't have to believe in me or obey my laws if they don't want to"? If you truly believe your religion is correct it makes sense that you think everybody else needs to believe it too.


you see, that's why I (and many people like me) thought Buddhism would be different : unlike many other religions, they don't have a god
but clearly the cultural and organisational aspect of religion takes on a life of its own, independent of whether there's a god in charge of not

as far as Myanmar is concerned, I heard it being said that they want to keep their identity and are afraid of being overrun by other culture - their example is Indonesia, which used to be Buddhist, until it turned into a Muslim nation

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Itoero
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:27 pm
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The holy book and the way it's interpreted has a big influence on the tolerance of a religion.


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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:15 pm
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I thought many forms of Buddhism deified Buddha.
Which is the most accepted one?


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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:14 pm
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marnixR wrote:
imo it confirms my bias against religion that ALL religions are as intolerant as another when they're in a controlling position

The following article should be relevant to the topic if you take the time to read it in full and understand the implications of Myanmar's penal code role in "confirming" your bias.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/myanmars ... peech-law/


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:45 pm
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^would you be willing to summarize the key one or two points of that article you find most relevant for the sake of this discussion?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:51 pm
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I skimmed through the article, and all I get from it is the irony that a piece of legislation designed to protect Muslim minorities from being harassed through incitement by Buddhist extremists is now being used to make it impossible to take the same extremists to task for exactly this type of incitement

not really sure what the piece about Ghandi and Pakistani muslims being insulted has to do with the situation in Myanmar

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:42 am
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iNow wrote:
^would you be willing to summarize the key one or two points of that article you find most relevant for the sake of this discussion?

The appearance of religious intolerance is the largely due to the selective application of specific laws and disregard for judicial consistencies in their execution within the borders of Myanmar. The article highlights this by giving readers a background into how the code came about, the exclusion of a proposed statutory interpretation to prevent misuse and abuse, and the inconsistent application of and/or the complete disregard of other domestic laws within Myanmar.

It is one thing to say that a religion is intolerant of criticisms and/or offences levied against it, but quite another when the religious text and canon does not actually advocate those traits in its adherents. One might say that adherent of abrahamic religions may find justifications within their religious text and canon for their display of intolerance, but can the same be said for buddhism in general? The image below is an understatement in this particular instance for more than one party.

Image


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:10 am
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Thank you

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:03 am
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I'm not familiar with Buddhist texts, so don't what they advocate or not
all I can see is their practice

what concerned me most of all is that in practice, criticism of Buddhism in Myanmar is forbidden, meaning that it's either above the law or a law onto itself - and what concerns me more than anything else is that those not in the know can easily fall foul of this practice without realising it

it is the type of behaviour that I used to associate with extremist Islam, but now it appears that it could be a characteristic of all religions at their more fundamentalist end, which is a rather sad realisation for an atheist like myself, who thinks religion is already treated with far too much deference anyway

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:13 am
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marnixR wrote:
I'm not familiar with Buddhist texts, so don't what they advocate or not
all I can see is their practice

Why else would I have referenced the imaged embedded in my previous post. :lol:

marnixR wrote:
what concerned me most of all is that in practice, criticism of Buddhism in Myanmar is forbidden, meaning that it's either above the law or a law onto itself - and what concerns me more than anything else is that those not in the know can easily fall foul of this practice without realising it

Technically, the Myanmarese Penal Code Chapter XV sections 295 to 298 says otherwise, but as you've already pointed out, the practice is far different. If you've spend some time absorbing the article I've provided earlier, you may understand the issues a little better.

Quote:
Chapter XV (Of Offences Relating To Religion)

295. Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class or persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of person or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction, damage or defilement as an insult to their religion, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

295(A). Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling of any class of [persons resident in the Union], by words, either spoken or written, or bu visible representations, insults or attempt to insult the religion of the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

296. Whoever voluntarily cases disturbance to any assembly lawfully engaged in the performance of religious worship or religious ceremonies shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may t=extend to one year, or with fine, or with both.

297. Whoever, with the intention of wounding the feelings of any person of insulting the religion of any person, or with the knowledge that the feelings of any person are likely to be wounded or that the religion of any persona is likely to be insulted thereby commits any trespass in any place of worship or on any place of sepulture, or any place set apart for the performance of funeral rites or as a depository for the remains of the dead, or offers any indignity to any human corpse, or causes disturbance to any persons assembled for the performance of funeral ceremonies, shall be punished with the imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both.

298. Whoever with the deliberate intention of wounding the religious feelings of any person, utters any word or makes any sound in the hearing of that person or makes any gesture in the sight of that person or places any object in the sight of that person, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may be extend to one year, or with fine, or with both

http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs17/1861 ... -en+bu.pdf


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:20 pm
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the funny thing is that all these items in law state explicitly that there has to be intent - in the case of the Dutchman he was not aware that this was a religious sermon keeping him awake at night, hence there could not have been any intent

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:44 pm
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marnixR wrote:
the funny thing is that all these items in law state explicitly that there has to be intent - in the case of the Dutchman he was not aware that this was a religious sermon keeping him awake at night, hence there could not have been any intent

Even more interestingly, a different report mentions that the local who called for police intervention said that the arrest wasn't the overall intended result also.

Quote:
A community leader involved in Haytema’s case, Chit San, said he called police when tempers flared after Haytema acted.

He said: “We could not negotiate peacefully because people were angry, so we called the police to control the situation.

“We actually didn’t want him to get arrested.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/d ... 8a0f2831ff


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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:14 pm

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I was in the Welsh bus station of Swansea last month. About 30 Buddhists came marching through with hand beating drums. They were marvellous entertainers and appeared to be divorced of politics, but who knows.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:18 pm
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when in the minority most religions are meek, but once in control of a large portion of a population or civilisation they become domineering, and history is full of examples of what happens then

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:31 pm
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
Quote:
Chapter XV (Of Offences Relating To Religion)295(A). Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling of any class of [persons resident in the Union], by words, either spoken or written, or bu visible representations, insults or attempt to insult the religion of the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.
...
298. Whoever with the deliberate intention of wounding the religious feelings of any person, utters any word or makes any sound in the hearing of that person or makes any gesture in the sight of that person or places any object in the sight of that person, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may be extend to one year, or with fine, or with both

http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs17/1861 ... -en+bu.pdf

If I'm reading this correctly, if someone were to tell me that they were (insert religion here), and I replied "Wow, you must be a fucking idiot to believe that crokc of shit," then I would be guilty of at least one of these. It should be well within a person's right to say "Buddhism is the most useless and ass backwards belief ever," or "Islam is stupid," or "Christianity is a load of shit," or anything along those lines. It's called having an opinion, and how those laws are worded makes it sound like you have to keep any sort of negative religious opinion to yourself.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:37 pm
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Falconer360 wrote:
... if someone were to tell me that they were (insert religion here), and I replied "Wow, you must be a fucking idiot to believe that crokc of shit," then I would be guilty of at least one of these.


if you had said that against any christian religion in the US of the McCarthy era, you would have been accused of unamerican activities and being a communist :twisted:

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:31 am
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Falconer360 wrote:
If I'm reading this correctly, if someone were to tell me that they were (insert religion here), and I replied "Wow, you must be a fucking idiot to believe that crokc of shit," then I would be guilty of at least one of these. It should be well within a person's right to say "Buddhism is the most useless and ass backwards belief ever," or "Islam is stupid," or "Christianity is a load of shit," or anything along those lines. It's called having an opinion, and how those laws are worded makes it sound like you have to keep any sort of negative religious opinion to yourself.

Relics from the colonial rule of the British Empire - adopted and re-purposed. Would you like to take a guess at how many countries were and still are similarly affected by the taint?


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:35 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
... if someone were to tell me that they were (insert religion here), and I replied "Wow, you must be a fucking idiot to believe that crokc of shit," then I would be guilty of at least one of these.


if you had said that against any christian religion in the US of the McCarthy era, you would have been accused of unamerican activities and being a communist :twisted:


I'm so glad that I didn't live in that time period. Even though I was almost two when the USSR collapsed, I still remember lots of lingering Cold War feelings in the adults at the time and anti-Russian sentiment. Now we have American teens that think Putin is so cool, and wish that he was the leader here. Weird how things change in 25 years.

scoobydoo1 wrote:
Would you like to take a guess at how many countries were and still are similarly affected by the taint?

Way too many I'm guessing.

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:09 am
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Falconer360 wrote:
Way too many I'm guessing.

Just to be clear, I am referring to blasphemy laws that were either imposed on or adopted by former British colonies - such as Myanmar.

Members who are satisfied enough by what I have provided so far may wish to stop here. Those who aren't, and are even more curious may choose to look up the similar taint of colonially adopted blashphemy laws in India.

Quote:
Since British law in India upheld freedom of speech, the authorities needed to employ other means of controlling possibly subversive voices. The laws against libel and sedition became the British Empire's censorship tools in the subcontinent. Prime among these was Indian Penal Code 295(A), which was passed in 1927, at a time of intense conflicts between Hindus (particularly Arya Samaj Hindus) and Muslims.

When the Muslim community demanded a law against insults to religious feelings, the Colonial British Government enacted Section 295(A)[/b]. The law stated:

[b]Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of [citizens of India], [by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise,] insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to [three years], or with fine, or with both.


Other cases followed, most of them protesting insults against Islam, and some defending Catholics—that is, defending religious minorities against Hindus.

The situation changed dramatically after India's Independence from Britain, in 1947, with the rise of a new form of Hindu Nationalism, no longer directed against the British but against other religions in India, primarily Islam and then Christianity.

Hindus have long prided themselves on their tolerance, and indeed the worldly, polytheistic, orthoprax strain of Hindus has always been admirably tolerant of the beliefs (if not necessarily the actions) of other religions. But Hindus of the more orthodox strain remain intolerant of any slur cast against their tolerance.

https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sightings ... dy-doniger

Those who have been paying attention to the details I've provided so far, will no doubt recognise the above quoted excerpt bearing a very familiar wording to Myanmar's Penal Code 295(A) as well. Connecting the dots is a feat that I am fairly confident members here are capable of.

So, to bring us back to the main thread question of whether buddhism a tolerant religion?

I can only speak for myself in saying that I personally determine that based on what the religion actually says, rather than when the adherents are "Doing it wrong". Am I bias in this respect - being an Asian an all? Perhaps, but the case to pin the label on the atheistic religion such as buddhism as intolerant isn't a strong one. I am usually reluctant in coming to the defense of religions in general, but this one deserves my attention.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:47 am
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so why do you feel you need to defend Buddhism as a religion of peace ? because Myanmar is an exception, and atypical for the religion as a whole ?

however, having been in Myanmar, this was the one and only country where religion was so prominent and so interwoven with public life - even India didn't come close

so does that make them more likely to take offence when they see their way of life insulted, and it has little to do with religion ?

on the other hand, Myanmar is in a league of its own in that it has monks preaching hatred against other religions - again, not sure whether this is because of Myanmar's insularity, or because it's something that happens when religions in a position of control feel threatened

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:19 pm
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marnixR wrote:
so why do you feel you need to defend Buddhism as a religion of peace ?

I am not trying to defend buddhism as a "religion of peace". I am however answering the thread question that I do not find it an "intolerant" religion simply by looking at a singular example. Besides, have I not already established that what you identify as intolerance is largely due to how the legacy laws are set in place, and no so much that the religion itself teaches or preaches intolerant attitudes.

Do you require me to elaborate that portion further?


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:43 pm
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no, I think you made your position quite clear

to repeat, I'm not sure whether this "insulting religion" is triggered by legal, political, social or religious issues, or a combination of one or more of these factors, but it definitely raises the possibility that religion (in this case Buddhism) plays a role

after all, there's many pieces of legislation e.g. in the UK that are still on the statute books but are never enforced - there clearly has to be an instigator to make use of the available legislation in order to keep it alive

as I've already said it's not clear to what extent religion is a factor in keeping this piece of legislation alive, but it definitely is a possibility that it's part of the mix - in which case, the Myanmar version of Buddhism appears to be less tolerant than Buddhism in other countries

again it's not clear whether this is because of some circumstance specific to Myanmar, or because other mainly Buddhist countries feel less threatened in their dominant position

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:04 pm
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marnixR wrote:
... there clearly has to be an instigator to make use of the available legislation in order to keep it alive

as I've already said it's not clear to what extent religion is a factor in keeping this piece of legislation alive, but it definitely is a possibility that it's part of the mix - in which case, the Myanmar version of Buddhism appears to be less tolerant than Buddhism in other countries

I require a little clarification in what you have said. When you say "Myanmar version of Buddhism", did you mean the behaviour and/or attitudes of buddhists in that culture? Or, did you mean a particular school of buddhist teachings that is prevalent in Myanmar at the present time? I would attribute the latter as indicative of a religion being tolerant or intolerant, rather than the "you're doing it wrong" crowd. If that is the case, I may be willing to yield to you saying that "a number of Myanmar buddhists have intolerant attitudes" rather than the religion itself.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:17 pm
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the intolerance I'm referring to is the following :

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?

as for Buddhism as it applies to Myanmar, I've never seen other countries where every boy is expected to be a monk for at least a few years of their life, or where people as a rule are expected to donate between 10 and 20% of their income - and give daily donations of rice by young monks or nuns who come to beg as a group for their respective monasteries

that's something that happened to Christian countries in Europe in the Middle Ages, but not since

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:38 pm
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marnixR wrote:
... as for Buddhism as it applies to Myanmar ...

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Myanmarese are intolerant, rather than the religion they subscribe to as intolerant?

Unless of course, you or any one else here is able to connect the dots linking what buddhism may have actually said or did not say - to its adherent's actions. Does buddhism actually preaches an intolerant philosophy or as I've already pointed out "You're doing it wrong" applying to more than one party?


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:32 pm
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
marnixR wrote:
... as for Buddhism as it applies to Myanmar ...

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Myanmarese are intolerant, rather than the religion they subscribe to as intolerant?

This is how I see it. They might be doing it for the sake of Buddhism, but they're not doing it because their religion tells them to. They're doing it because they are too "fragile" to deal with dissenting views.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:40 pm
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
marnixR wrote:
... as for Buddhism as it applies to Myanmar ...

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Myanmarese are intolerant, rather than the religion they subscribe to as intolerant?


could be, but it is strange nonetheless that it is specifically the religious aspect of their society that appears to be the cause of intolerance
now it may be as you say that this is not a trait of Buddhism, but a trait specific to Myanmar, and there's nothing I can add to my case to prove otherwise

it just makes me uneasy that even a religion renowned for its peacefulness can be subverted into aggression by people who consider themselves ardent adherents of the same religion

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:22 pm
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marnixR wrote:
it just makes me uneasy that even a religion renowned for its peacefulness can be subverted into aggression by people who consider themselves ardent adherents of the same religion

I think this says a lot about human nature. From what I've seen anything can be subverted into aggression by people who consider themselves peaceful.

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Hannah40
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:44 am
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The very issue with any religion is the ultimate goal to create unity. When, in fact it does the complete opposite. It creates division.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:16 pm
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Hannah40 wrote:
The very issue with any religion is the ultimate goal to create unity. When, in fact it does the complete opposite. It creates division.

Well, it depends on the population being viewed. Quite often, within the community of like-minded believers there is great unity created. It's only when viewed more broadly at a global level that we see it as yet another way to create us/them dichotomies and separations.

In the local village or town, those who attend the same church tend to be very united. Go one town over, or visit a slightly different denomination, however, and we're quickly reminded how closely related we are to the chimpanzee and various other tribal primates.

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Prometheus
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:27 pm
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M_Gabriela wrote:
I thought many forms of Buddhism deified Buddha.
Which is the most accepted one?


Many forms of Buddhism, as well as Hinduism, Confucianism and other ancestor worshiping traditions, do indeed deify the Buddha.

There isn't an accepted version. Even estimating the most popular is difficult as the religion is very fragmented. The Buddha specifically refused to impose any sort of order upon the system letting his disciples figure it out for themselves.

Itoero wrote:
The holy book and the way it's interpreted has a big influence on the tolerance of a religion.


There isn't a holy book in Buddhism. After the Buddha's death his teachings were kept by his disciples via oral tradition. About 500 years after his death the first written texts appeared. There was never a Council of Carthage moment to collate or edit which texts are canon. Many suttas are very obviously much later additions but still generally accepted as Buddhist texts (Diamond Sutta for example). And within different branches of Buddhism a different emphasis will be placed on the texts - Zen Buddhists will barely read a single sutta, while certain Theravadan traditions will worship a text (sometimes without even reading it).

marnixR wrote:
could be, but it is strange nonetheless that it is specifically the religious aspect of their society that appears to be the cause of intolerance


Is it really religion that is the cause? Do you honestly believe that if we take religion completely out of the picture in Myanmar there would be complete piece between the various ethnic communities?

Not to say that religion can have a role in encouraging or mitigating against such divisions, but it is not the cause any more than football causes Millwall and West Ham fans to beat the crap out of each other. I would say the same for Islamic terrorism - even without Islam there would various ethnic tensions that would manifest in violence. Islam, or religion in general, is a very convenient medium for such violence but without it our violent tenancies would find another medium. Indonesia's recent history is a very good case study of this if you care to go off topic - what was once anti communist killings (about one million death camp style murders) are now manifesting as Islamic killings (we know because the anti-communist killers were never brought to justice and it is the same people now stoking the youth to violence but now via Islam).

By the way extremist Buddhism can also be found in Sri Lanka and a little in Thailand, much to the chagrin of many Buddhists.

marnixR wrote:
it just makes me uneasy that even a religion renowned for its peacefulness can be subverted into aggression by people who consider themselves ardent adherents of the same religion


The problem is with the tribal and aggressive vestiges of humanity. Until this is tackled, even mediums such as football, literally kicking a piece of leather between posts, will be subverted to encourage violence towards other groups of humans.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:12 pm
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Prometheus wrote:
Is it really religion that is the cause? Do you honestly believe that if we take religion completely out of the picture in Myanmar there would be complete piece between the various ethnic communities?


I have heard that people in Myanmar have seen how a previously Buddhist country like Indonesia is now completely converted to Islam, and word has it that they don't want a similar thing happening in their country

to me that sounds like a religion that feels threatened and tries to turn the tide on what they see as the thin end of the wedge - maybe culture and religion are one and the same in this case, but having been in Myanmar about 4 years ago, I have seen firsthand how religion dominates society, about to the extent that Christianity dominated medieval Western Europe

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Prometheus
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:25 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
Is it really religion that is the cause? Do you honestly believe that if we take religion completely out of the picture in Myanmar there would be complete piece between the various ethnic communities?


I have heard that people in Myanmar have seen how a previously Buddhist country like Indonesia is now completely converted to Islam, and word has it that they don't want a similar thing happening in their country

to me that sounds like a religion that feels threatened and tries to turn the tide on what they see as the thin end of the wedge - maybe culture and religion are one and the same in this case, but having been in Myanmar about 4 years ago, I have seen firsthand how religion dominates society, about to the extent that Christianity dominated medieval Western Europe


I've not been to Myanmar nor studied its history. I suspect being Buddhist is a strong part of the cultural identity in Myanmar and perceived attempts to change that are seen as a threat. By this hypothesis it is not that religion is causing this violence, but the threat to their culture which is personified by Buddhism. Replace Buddhism with different fundamental tenant of their culture, like being Man Utd supporters, we would see the same response. Would we then suspect Man Utd, or football in general, of being causative of violence?

Certainly we have seen nationalistic ideologies become strong cultural indicators followed swiftly by violence against dissenters. It's just that religion is a very (the most?) common cultural identity, but any strong cultural identity would invoke the same response to a perceived threat. That perceived threat is usually a politically motivated ploy to deflect real issues while consolidating a power base - i suspect Myanmar is a politically fragile country right now?

Also people in Myanmar need to learn Indonesian history a little more if they are going to use that as a reason to incite violence - but then these movements never do appeal to reason.


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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Buddhism, a tolerant religion ?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:11 pm

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marnixR wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
... if someone were to tell me that they were (insert religion here), and I replied "Wow, you must be a fucking idiot to believe that crokc of shit," then I would be guilty of at least one of these.


if you had said that against any christian religion in the US of the McCarthy era, you would have been accused of unamerican activities and being a communist :twisted:


Hell, it's still true and deeply embedded at the core of the Republican party.

Extremist Buddhist forms seem rather rare--I rather hope it stays that way.


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