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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:56 pm
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Is there any estimation or concrete evidence indicating when humans became domesticated (not feral)? Is there a defining trait or attribute that humans possess to enable easy transition from wild to tame? Were the first humans as wild as we would describe any other untamed beast? With no other animals about to tame us, did we tame ourselves? If we can domesticate ourselves then can other animals do likewise?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:25 pm
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i know it has sometimes been said in jest that humans domesticated themselves, and maybe you could state that the transition from a hunter/gatherer to a agricultural lifestyle represents exactly such an event

this would have shown up in the archeological record as a decrease in stature, worsening dental condition and various types of skeletal wear following from practices such as grinding grains

in animals domestication usually leads to a shrinkage of the brain (letting humans take care of their worries of finding food and fending off a dangerous world), but as far as i'm aware this has not been recorded in the fossil records

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:41 pm
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Ants farming aphids, symbiotic relationships, an example of wild or domesticated behavior in other creatures? Beneficial relationships in the animal kingdom tends to lead to passive behavior by predatory animals, I'm thinking Cleaner Fish entering the jaws of death without fear. Not advocating this as a theory but could something like the tame wolf (dog) have the same affect on us? Does it pacify us, make us less wild? If we do the worrying for the domesticated then does it benefit us to tame the wild, as in brains maintaining or increasing their size over time?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:19 pm
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in a way, domestication implies that the domesticated animal is now separate from its wild kin to such an extent that it might not be able to survive on its own outside domestication

that's why i think that your example of aphids or cleaner fish may not actually count as domestication

as for human beings, it's hard to tell whether we're now sufficiently different from our "wild" kin because the latter are no longer around for us to make the comparison

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:14 pm
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marnixR wrote:
that's why i think that your example of aphids or cleaner fish may not actually count as domestication


I was thinking more of a beginning to our domestication. How would it have started? One reason why I'm asking if we are wild.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:17 am
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What does it mean to be wild?

We may, as a species, have elaborate systems of social norms and manners - but we are also the only one threatening ourselves and all other species with extinction.

Just because an action is performed by a well dressed, superficially well mannered person does not make it any less barbaric.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:30 am
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
I was thinking more of a beginning to our domestication. How would it have started? One reason why I'm asking if we are wild.


I think we know the answer when it comes to dogs, where it started off with natural selection for wolves who had a smaller flight distance (the distance where an animal takes flight when approached by a person) near early humans refuse tips
those whose flight distance reduced to zero would then adopt the human pack over the wolf pack and from then on artificial selection into the various dog types could take place

again, if you want to translate this type of transition to human beings, it's not easy to make any comparisons - probably meaning that domestication and self-domestication are not really all that comparable

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:09 pm
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marnixR wrote:
again, if you want to translate this type of transition to human beings, it's not easy to make any comparisons - probably meaning that domestication and self-domestication are not really all that comparable


Wild is a subjective term. What exactly is the criteria for the 'wild' label? Don't think many see humanity as wild but not too much of a stretch I think. Maybe if other creatures could talk they'd tell us.

I guess we wait until a superior intelligence arrives on Earth and tames us :)

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:29 pm
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I also wonder whether these superior intelligences celebrate Christmas,and if so, what they eat instead of turkey - a poll suggests that 100% of crocodiles find human meat exceedingly tasty

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:39 pm
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marnixR wrote:
I also wonder whether these superior intelligences celebrate Christmas,and if so, what they eat instead of turkey - a poll suggests that 100% of crocodiles find human meat exceedingly tasty


Perhaps crocs have read the Kanamits' cookbook.

The one time I Scuba'd in salt water there was talk of sharks in the area. Knowing this going in took away any feeling of comfort I possessed about belonging to the world's top predator club.

I think of domestication of livestock, certainly not good for those critters that we consume, although they probably live longer. Yet I wonder if domestication actually improves the lot of a species.

Discovery had a show a few years ago about what would happen if humans suddenly disappeared from the planet. One episode said that domesticated dogs in around 25 years would return to their wild state, roam in packs and resemble more of their wolf cousins than any breed they once represented. Appears wildness has its own particular look to it also.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:34 pm
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on the other hand most dogs are merely adorable imbeciles who couldn't keep themselves alive unless fed by human beings or at the very least being able to scavenge on the outskirts of human society

then again, some dogs might make it, although my guess is that wolves would start pouring out of their current refuge areas and possibly outcompete most if not all dogs - which probably would leave the continents where wolves naturally don't occur as the only areas for possible future dog evolution

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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:10 am
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I'd argue that in a sense we've become more feral.

Most of our history, we toiled daily in direct conflict with nature. Hunting it, ploughing it, running from it, chopping it, and so forth. "Humanity" in contrast was a cozy group of family and friends, set apart from that natural environment we struggled to exploit.

Today most of our environment is in fact aspects of humanity. So we struggle against other drivers, against clerks and customers, against the price of tea. The individual regards humanity as environment that must be exploited and might even be dangerous. Like all animals we're still optimized to sense problems and solve them, so now to fill this need we get online and find people who are wrong...


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:44 am
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how's that make you feral ? I thought feral meant domesticated returned to a wild state
surely if we agree that humans self-domesticated then there would be no wild to return to, given the prevalence of human influence across the globe - meaning that humans are either wild or domesticated, but not feral

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Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: Are Humans Wild Animals?  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:53 am
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I'm thinking "feral" in attitude. Like if you have a dog - in your home - that behaves like a coyote. Basically it's the difference between friendly or hostile to the "master" species (humans). The setting is irrelevant. You could have a feral or domesticated dog in your back yard, or you could meet either in the street or in the bush.

Feral humans? Yeah maybe "wild" is a better term. Thinking of the Wild West.


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