FAQ
It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:16 am


Author Message
Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:03 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:49 am
Posts: 379

Offline
Should religious leaders be held responsible for deaths occurring because of holy text that encourages the killing of human beings? Some states have instituted a 'market liability' law in which drug dealers can be charged with murder. Why not the same culpability for religious leaders? Or should we look at religiously persuaded leaders/killers as victims also? Does a religious extremist really commit murder if he/she kills in the name of their religion, especially if their holy text permits/authorizes it?

I wonder just how long it took after the first religion was formed for the first religiously inspired killing to take place? When for the first time some ancient farmer clocked his next door neighbor for not believing or following suit, was he justified? What if he had written it as acceptable in a holy book and had a follower or adherent to his text do it for him?

Personally I don't think farmer or follower were all there, mentally. Is it any different today? Is killing in the name of religion, worth an insanity plea?

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:31 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
it's certainly true that religions used all means possible to become the top dog against other religions, and that would have included violence from quite early on

however, the experience of the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao goes to show that any ideology that lets the promise of future happiness take precedence over your happiness in the present condition, and rates the wishes of the masses as translated by the chosen few higher than the wishes of the individual can cause the same type of violence independent of whether the ideology is religiously inspired or not

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:26 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:49 am
Posts: 379

Offline
marnixR wrote:
it's certainly true that religions used all means possible to become the top dog against other religions, and that would have included violence from quite early on

however, the experience of the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao goes to show that any ideology that lets the promise of future happiness take precedence over your happiness in the present condition, and rates the wishes of the masses as translated by the chosen few higher than the wishes of the individual can cause the same type of violence independent of whether the ideology is religiously inspired or not


If either of a pair of warring ideologies is based solely on religious belief then should it matter who starts the violence? For instance, could not anti-theist violence, even if committed by atheists still be considered a religious reason for violence?

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:36 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
the violence under Stalin or Mao was against any individual not adhering to the party's policy of the day
obviously there was some element of anti-theism involved (against the orthodox church in Russia, and against confucianism in China) but you could easily be accused of anti-communist or rightist activities even if you didn't have a religious bone in your body

obviously it would be possible to claim that communism as practiced under Stalin or Mao was a form of secular religion, with a personality cult replacing the god of standard religions, and if this is maintained then the persecution of religion under communism was merely a 20th century version of inter-religious wars

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:55 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:49 am
Posts: 379

Offline
Would you charge Mao or Stalin with murder? They are leaders who advocated the murder of non followers, how is that different from any organized religion's leader(s) who believe killing people is justified?

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:21 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Zinjanthropos wrote:
Would you charge Mao or Stalin with murder?


yes, i would

and no, in essence there is no difference between their secular intolerance of other ideologies and the intolerance of religions for other religions

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:08 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:49 am
Posts: 379

Offline
There is irony however. Anyone belonging to a persecuted religion containing characters within it that influence both good & evil in humanity, have to believe an aspect of their ideology is at work when people like Mao & Stalin are doing their worst.

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:35 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
in the end, I'd say that religion and secular ideologies are merely different expressions of tribalism
it makes people feel they belong, with the reverse of the coin being xenophobia against anyone not belonging to the tribe

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:26 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 286

Offline
I am a very passionate supporter of Manchester United Football Club ( MUFC ) tribalism is the name of the game.


Top
Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:44 pm

Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:17 am
Posts: 240
Location: US Pacific NorthWest

Offline
marnixR wrote:
Zinjanthropos wrote:
Would you charge Mao or Stalin with murder?


yes, i would

and no, in essence there is no difference between their secular intolerance of other ideologies and the intolerance of religions for other religions



I strongly disagree. Religious ideas are generally far more durable, and immutable to benevolent change that contrast with their doctrine.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:55 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Lynx_Fox wrote:
I strongly disagree. Religious ideas are generally far more durable, and immutable to benevolent change that contrast with their doctrine.


when i equated secular ideologies and religions i was not thinking so much about their durability, but about their level of intolerance and the level of bloodiness they exhibited in defending their patch

clearly stalinism died with Stalin and maoism with Mao, whereas religions are not bound to the lifespan of a single individual - which in the end makes religion far more dangerous than secular ideologies

but if you're at the wrong end of any of these ideologies it hardly matters whether it was done in the name of secularity or religion - their bloodiest is just as deadly as that of the other

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Not Religion's Fault?  |  Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:32 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
just reading this passage in Cullen Murphy's "God's jury" (about the Inquisition) :

Quote:
In a world of moral certainty, the unthinkable becomes permissible.


although the book is about the Inquisition as exacted by the catholic church, the author explicitly makes the link to other ideologies who employ similar tools of repression :

Quote:
Every subsequent outbreak of persecution, whether political or religious, has been abetted by the same forces. ... snip ... And they help explain why the Inquisition template has translated so easily from the religious sphere into the world of secular governments and secular ideologies.


what religion and certain secular ideologies share is the moral certainty that those meting out the punishment are utterly convinced that their moral stance is the one and only correct one

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy