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Rory
Post  Post subject: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:56 pm
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Looks like the anti-immigration anti-Islam AfD party is rising in Germany

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37271971

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:42 pm
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What did you want to discuss exactly?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:44 pm
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Just noting cases of the rise of xenophobia

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:56 pm
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In that case, see Brexit vote in UK and Trump campaign in US.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:16 pm
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Yes, exactly - the insidious creep of racism

My hypothesis would be (not exactly novel) that it is caused almost entirely by a global economy on the brink.

Discuss. :)

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:25 pm
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Historically, economic downturns result in a surge of right wing populism and xenophobic nationalism. Given that we're now coming out of the worst recession since the Great Depression it really should be no surprise.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:30 pm
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The (mainstream) media are telling us we recovered long ago.

If GDP is up, unemployment is almost full, inflation is low...

then shouldn't we have expected the spike in racism years ago?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:17 am
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No. Why would you think that? It doesn't seem to align with the history of these trends.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eve ... ebesch.pdf

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:46 am
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Read the first couple of pages but I can't see any reference to rise in xenophobia during or after recovery - not going to read all 32 pages.

As an example, the Great Depression lasted 1929-39 and Nazism sprung up in the early 1930s - during the Depression, not during an economic recovery.

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:09 pm

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Rory wrote:
Looks like the anti-immigration anti-Islam AfD party is rising in Germany

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37271971

This is hardly surprising, after all Angela Merkel allowed entry, to a million Muslims into Germany illegally. These people were a mixture of refugees and economic migrants mainly from North Africa, and the Middle East. A high proportion of these people are single males of military age, they should be back home fighting for their countries. This massive influx of Muslims is not only confined to Germany. The rest of Europe has also been affected by mass immigration mainly from North Africa and parts of the Middle East. A weekly look at newspapers from all over Europe tells us a sorry tale of terrorism, rapes, murders and general criminality by some of these people. Europe has a long rocky road ahead, with people who refuse to integrate into the host country, and the indigenous population of the said countries who do not want the incomers. It is inevitable that the Right Wing will rise. Chaos in Germany and the rest of Europe will prevail IMHO. Just recently New York experienced the thanks from people who were welcomed into America with open arms. I hope this does not come across as a rant, but I do despair.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:38 pm
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If the concern is with the influx of people, in general, why the focus on their religion? Your suggestion doesn't square with your words.

Study after study shows that immigration tends to be a net good on the economy, both short-term and long, yet what we hear tends to resemble nationalism, tribalism writ large, and small mindedness.

Why is that?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:58 am
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I think it's a combination of large numbers and non-integration, the latter being related to keep a type of religion that doesn't sit well with what is to a large extent a secular society

if the numbers were small, the non-integration would be less of a problem, and if they integrated there wouldn't be a problem - it's the combination of the two that causes the problem, and whether we like it or not, religion is part of the problem since it impedes integration

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:38 pm

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iNow wrote:
If the concern is with the influx of people, in general, why the focus on their religion? Your suggestion doesn't square with your words.

Study after study shows that immigration tends to be a net good on the economy, both short-term and long, yet what we hear tends to resemble nationalism, tribalism writ large, and small mindedness.

Why is that?


The AFD are on the rise in Germany precisely because they are anti immigration and anti Islam. A million Muslims ( perhaps even more ) have entered Germany fairly recently. The religion of these incomers is of concern to the German people, if it wasn't the AFD would be nowhere.
I fail to see which studies have concluded that mass uncontrolled immigration is good for any country, especially when that mass uncontrolled immigration is people of an alien culture.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:45 pm
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My comments about the well known economic benefits of immigration was not specific to "mass uncontrolled migration" as you've suggested, it is true, though. People act as if jobs are zero sum, but migration increases demand for goods and services which increases employment which further increases demand for goods and services... a self-perpetuating cycle. Add to this how much immigration helps replace labor from the elderly, helps with tax revenues to handle their pensions, etc. and the argument is simple. Except in the most extreme of cases, immigration is VERY good for an economy and the people existing within that economy.

Seems like perhaps you are referring only to those most extreme cases, though? Even so, still unsure why religion matters (and I promise I'm no fan or apologist for religion... I have a decade of posts that rapidly destroy any suggestions along those lines)

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:06 pm

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Mass uncontrolled immigration is happening on a Western European Continental scale. In years gone by, this sort of stuff was called an invasion.
Yes, I am aware of your stance on religion, and good for you.


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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:55 pm

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wireless wrote:
Mass uncontrolled immigration is happening on a Western European Continental scale. In years gone by, this sort of stuff was called an invasion.
Yes, I am aware of your stance on religion, and good for you.


Why do you call it uncontrolled. It seems Europe (and the US) have made a conscious decision to allow it. It's also an area, where liberals are completely wrong.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:02 pm
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Lynx_Fox wrote:
Why do you call it uncontrolled. It seems Europe (and the US) have made a conscious decision to allow it. It's also an area, where liberals are completely wrong.


it's uncontrolled because no politician seems to have thought that if you open the gates you can't then stipulate how many are going to come in - they were totally taken aback by the fact that vastly greater numbers started pouring into Europe than they had bargained for

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:05 pm

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marnixR wrote:
Lynx_Fox wrote:
Why do you call it uncontrolled. It seems Europe (and the US) have made a conscious decision to allow it. It's also an area, where liberals are completely wrong.


it's uncontrolled because no politician seems to have thought that if you open the gates you can't then stipulate how many are going to come in - they were totally taken aback by the fact that vastly greater numbers started pouring into Europe than they had bargained for



Whiles true they might not have anticipated the influx consider the vast majority by a large amount that came over legally and have gotten or in the process of getting citizenship--hence it's not really uncontrolled at all.

I'd characterize it as more nievity combined with insanely Utopian thinking that the tens of millions of non-European immigrants would integrate smoothly into European society.


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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:40 am

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Lynx_Fox wrote:
marnixR wrote:
Lynx_Fox wrote:
Why do you call it uncontrolled. It seems Europe (and the US) have made a conscious decision to allow it. It's also an area, where liberals are completely wrong.


it's uncontrolled because no politician seems to have thought that if you open the gates you can't then stipulate how many are going to come in - they were totally taken aback by the fact that vastly greater numbers started pouring into Europe than they had bargained for



Whiles true they might not have anticipated the influx consider the vast majority by a large amount that came over legally and have gotten or in the process of getting citizenship--hence it's not really uncontrolled at all.

I'd characterise it as more nievity combined with insanely Utopian thinking that the tens of millions of non-European immigrants would integrate smoothly into European society.

Uncontrolled or controlled immigration, depends on your way of thinking. I see that you agree with the fact that millions of Muslims settling in Europe is not going to work. The next act of Islamic terrorism in Europe is just around the corner. The AFD in Germany can only get stronger as will all other right wing groups in Europe. The European Union does not have a clear strategy to deal with this catastrophe, things are only going to get worse.


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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:55 pm

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wireless wrote:
I see that you agree with the fact that millions of Muslims settling in Europe is not going to work. The next act of Islamic terrorism in Europe is just around the corner. The AFD in Germany can only get stronger as will all other right wing groups in Europe. The European Union does not have a clear strategy to deal with this catastrophe, things are only going to get worse.


To be truthful terror attacks in the West have been very minor compared to most of the rest of the world--that doesn't make it acceptable, but is probably more an indicator of how unrealistic some Western expectations and fragile society is. Clear Strategy? Slowing down the flow, in general, could certainly help--but than again it's a Faustian deal between having young people to keep the economy afloat, and pie in the ski idealistic ideas about "security."


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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:03 pm

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I would hardly call 9/11 a minor terrorist attack, but yes terrorist attacks in other parts of the world are far worse than the attacks in the Western World. However the terrorist attacks that are happening in Europe are becoming more frequent. The scary thing is, is that the less sophisticated the attack is, means they are impossible to stop. Anyway, it is Sunday afternoon, the computer is going off, a DVD and a few cans is going to be the order of the day.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:20 pm
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it seems obvious to me that Lynx Fox did not call 9/11 a minor attack, so it's odd you felt the need to comment on that.

Also, terrorist attacks are not becoming more frequent. They're becoming more publicized. Don't confuse psychological salience or penetration into your consciousness/awareness with frequency.

(click to enlarge)
Image

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:11 pm

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It is obvious to me that Lynx Fox did not mention 9/11, I did, but what the heck. Your data is very interesting, I will have a Google for other data in the morning.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:43 am
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wireless wrote:
I fail to see which studies have concluded...

See also links within this summary:

http://billmoyers.com/story/immigrants- ... lionaires/
Quote:
...anti-immigrant arguments aren’t always based solely on fear or dehumanization. Economically vulnerable populations are often told that immigrants “take our jobs” and drag down wages.

Is it true?

tl;dr, or too many links? Short answer: No.

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wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:59 am

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iNow, the quote you used of mine was very selective. What I said was, " I fail to see which studies have concluded that mass uncontrolled immigration is good for any country, especially when that mass uncontrolled immigration is people of an alien culture. " Then the link you supplied had nothing to do with mass uncontrolled immigration, shame on you.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Charting the rise of xenophobia  |  Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:45 am
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We already clarified your comments about "mass uncontrolled" above, me and also other posters. Why do you feel we needed to repeat what had already been done? That territory was already crossed. Why do you suggest I had nefarious intent when these exchanges above are easily visible and plain for all to see?

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