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Rory
 Post subject: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:07 am

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 MODNOTE: This thread was split from Rant CornerRory wrote:Tbh I don't give a jizz about the good of society.INow wrote:You would if you were alone left to fend for yourself in a desolate barren world with none of the conveniences that come with tribal life and group supported infrastructure.My current income is 1/4 the quoted average figure for the bottom 90% - I don't care if society collapses I wish I hadn't accepted my current job _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: rant corner  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:05 am

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

 you should care about the collapse of society - because if you lived in a collapsed society, you would only care about staying alivethink failed states such as Somalia, Syria or Afghanistan _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Rory
 Post subject: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:47 am

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 At least the privileged would suffer equally I didn't used to take Futilitist seriously, but actually, what are the chances of any society lasting indefinitely? Has that ever occurred throughout human history? No species lasts forever, no society lasts forever I only hope it hurries up _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
Rory
 Post subject: Re: rant corner  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:36 pm

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 Western society Just keep printing, printing, printing _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
Falconer360
 Post subject: Re: rant corner  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:14 pm

Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1023
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

 Rory wrote:At least the privileged would suffer equally I didn't used to take Futilitist seriously, but actually, what are the chances of any society lasting indefinitely? Has that ever occurred throughout human history? No species lasts forever, no society lasts forever I only hope it hurries upI feel like this could and should be split off into it's own thread. Acting under the assumption that Inow will move this to it's own thread:@Rory, the privileged will still suffer less than the poor. They're still starting out the collapse with more resources available to them than you would have. To think that in a collapse of society that they still wouldn't come out ahead is ludicrous. "But the people will turn on them!" yes some of them will, but others will try to ally themselves with them to try and get a cut of those resources. "But in the collapse of society, currency is useless, what do the wealthy have to offer?" They still have their physical resources, like emergency generators, food, gasoline, access to water, a defensible location, etc. I'm not saying that 100% of the time, the privileged won't suffer as much as the rest of us, I'm just saying that most of the time they have means to lessen their suffering more than the rest of us do. _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: rant corner  |  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:41 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

 Falconer360 wrote:I feel like this could and should be split off into it's own thread. done _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Rory
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:51 am

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 The privileged have further to fall. It's not so much that I'd prefer a collapsed society (and its aftermath) so much as I'd prefer a new paradigm. In the same way, an expectant mother does not look forward to the pain of childbirth, but she is willing to endure it in order for her baby to be born. Well, I don't need to be proactive about this - I'll just sit and wait. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
iNow
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:41 am

Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5729
Location: Iowa

 I call bullshit.You don't want societal collapse. You want no longer to struggle financially or be made to feel inferior based on societal expectations or criteria for success that you didn't personally set or choose. There's an important difference, Rory, and one of those options doesn't unnecessarily harm those around you, their families, and the well-being of people they love and care for. Many of us come from difficult backgrounds. Not all of us incessantly sulk and whine and self-victimize about it. You're so full of rage and bile that you'd apparently rather use your energy burning it all to the ground...harming others who have neither mistreated you nor even wished you any ill-will whatsoever... than to become part of the solution and devote yourself to fixing the flaws you see and making things work better. I'm sorry, but you're being extremely childish, and my patience for that sort of thing is exceedingly low after spending such a large percentage of my days with actual 3-year olds. I'm well aware that misery loves company, but I'm going to respectfully decline the invitation to join you at this pity party. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
babe
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:24 am

Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:18 am
Posts: 279

 iNow wrote:I call bullshit.You don't want societal collapse. You want no longer to struggle financially or be made to feel inferior based on societal expectations or criteria for success that you didn't personally set or choose. There's an important difference, Rory, and one of those options doesn't unnecessarily harm those around you, their families, and the well-being of people they love and care for. Many of us come from difficult backgrounds. Not all of us incessantly sulk and whine and self-victimize about it. You're so full of rage and bile that you'd apparently rather use your energy burning it all to the ground...harming others who have neither mistreated you nor even wished you any ill-will whatsoever... than to become part of the solution and devote yourself to fixing the flaws you see and making things work better. I'm sorry, but you're being extremely childish, and my patience for that sort of thing is exceedingly low after spending such a large percentage of my days with actual 3-year olds. I'm well aware that misery loves company, but I'm going to respectfully decline the invitation to join you at this pity party.Well said.May I add. Those who have worked very hard to succeed and built their business's are not evil people. They often give a lot back to their community because they do remember when they had no money and two kids and had to feed their family on $1.59 for a week. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off and dig in your heels. marnixR  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:42 am Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm Posts: 4883 Location: Cardiff, Wales  my thoughts are that when you're in Rory's position you might be tempted to think that things can't get any worseif you lived in a collapsed society you would find to your distress that they could indeed get worse, but then it would be too late _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd) Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:59 am Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  iNow - shame you can't make the party, I'll miss your insults If you think you can fix an economy in which all we're doing is servicing debt, go ahead _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:29 am Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  Rory wrote:I wish I hadn't accepted my current jobPerhaps not as simply as you'd like and perhaps with fewer options than ideal and perhaps with stumbles and failures and frustrations and annoyances all along the way, but you do know, right, that changing this is entirely within your power? I feel like I'm stating the blindingly obvious, but also for some reason feel like it needs stating. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:41 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  So, no answers on the economy then. What a surprise. "We never did bear you any ill will" "Now, help us fix this economy." "It's been so long since mommy bought us something we don't need." _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:02 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  Ok _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:48 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  Rory wrote:The privileged have further to fall.Just because they have farther to fall doesn't mean shit realistically. Whenever economies or societies fall the rich/wealthy/privileged fall as well, but they still end up way higher than the working class or the poor. As Marnix pointed out, look at Somalia, Syria, and Afghanistan. The ones suffering the most are people like you or me. The ones with resources are either in control, or have gotten the fuck out of dodge. You say that you want a new paradigm and that if going through a societal collapse will bring about this paradigm, then you're willing to go through it, but these are just words. It's easy to think you're prepared for something that you've never experienced, but this is no different than the gun nuts here that are prepared to be a good guy with a gun when a shooter strikes, then piss themselves and cower when it actually happens. It's hard to prepare yourself for something so out of your level of experience. Do I think I could handle it better than you? No, I just have the good sense to admit that there is too many unknowns to be able to prepare myself fully for such a thing. Besides there is no guarantee that a societal collapse would even bring about a good paradigm shift. It could just end up being the start of the final death spiral of human civilization, or it could end up causing a military dictatorship worse than any before to rise up. You're using the same logic as the Bernie Bros here that want Trump to get elected over Clinton so that it will "wake america up" and "cause a paradigm shift to the left in order to make us accept truly progressive leaders." However, there is no evidence that this would happen, in fact electing Trump would probably just make us think that GW wasn't so bad and cause us to stay to the right. Or hell it could even cause us to move further right. My point is that it is beyond moronic to think that something good always will come from something bad, or that revolutions always end for the better of the people. _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori marnixR  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:37 pm Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm Posts: 4883 Location: Cardiff, Wales  I'd like to add to that point that I'm not willing to die for a paradigm - or any other belief system _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd) Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:16 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  It doesn't really matter whether or not I want a paradigm change (I do) - what matters is whether that change will be forced upon us. Will the economy dismantle itself? _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:09 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  I'm certainly not right wing on principle, but I think Peter Schiff makes a lot of sense. A vastly reduced government would be nice. You know the economy is over when you have mass numbers of graduates being forced to work for £2.50 per hour. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:36 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  You should watch Robert Reich's documentary "Inequality for all." I think you would like it. _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:13 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:17 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  Dude! Inow you're the man! _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori scoobydoo1  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:11 pm Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am Posts: 203 Location: Singapore  Wow, imagine coming home after a six months trip abroad and finding such a juicy topic on the forum. Does looking forward to societal collapse include rape gangs, slavery and such as well? If not, how does one deal with the propagation of them on the onset of societal collapse? Are you even aware of what societal collapse entails? Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:23 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  Watched the video but it doesn't provide any credible answers. Nobody has the answers. There's only so long a bankrupt nation can pretend to be solvent. It will, inevitably, collapse into a more stable configuration. And I think this will be our new reality. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:27 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  Guys - I never said I would enjoy societal collapse! I am not the author of the thread title! I'm saying I desire a completely novel economic paradigm, unlike any we have seen, perhaps unlike any we are currently able to imagine. But, frankly, I don't see any credible alternative to collapse. Society will keep on polarising exponentially until (soon) Hooke's Law ceases to apply. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:15 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  Hmm...Rory wrote:Tbh I don't give a jizz about the good of society.Rory wrote:I don't care if society collapsesRory wrote: I only hope it hurries upRory wrote:I'll just sit and wait.And from elsewhere:Rory wrote:I'm never going to fit in any workplaceRory wrote:even if it's an economic disaster, at least it won't be boring.Rory wrote:The world's on a knife edge in terms of global warming so, what we'll do, is obligate people to spend money they don't have, fighting for the same resources at the same time, to hoard items they don't need. We'll tell them it's for spiritual enrichment. Rory wrote:Once you hit rock bottom, all of the threats of economic doom from analysts cannot touch you.Rory wrote:At some point, hope becomes irrational.Rory wrote:I had to sit there as higher education was systematically undermined, to then be told, "you might not have much skills."Rory wrote:UK nationals are so fed up of living without hope that any kind of change is better than none. Even with uncertainty. Even with scaremongering. Even with the pound bottoming out.Rory wrote:Of course, those who've lost out will take reckless gambles. (...) When you have nothing left lose it makes sense to gamble.Rory wrote:frankly, I don't see any credible alternative to collapse.Confirmation bias strikes me as the far more likely explanation for this than does lack of credible options for improvement. _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:21 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  What, I'm painting a gloomy picture based purely on personal experience? I suppose Americans are rallying around Trump because they prefer blondes? I suppose British exit from the EU and rise of racism are the result of not wanting to watch Eurovision? La la la, the fix is around the corner. Meanwhile in Venezuala, some poor guy's wife just died because the nation can't afford to import medical supplies. An American driver grins at low oil prices as he fills his tank. La la la http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/11385294/Venezuelas-socialist-paradise-turns-into-a-nightmare-medical-shortages-claim-lives-as-oil-price-collapses.html _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:49 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  I would regard it as the anthropic principle rather than confirmation bias. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:23 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  Rory wrote:What, I'm painting a gloomy picture based purely on personal experience? I suppose Americans are rallying around Trump because they prefer blondes? I suppose British exit from the EU and rise of racism are the result of not wanting to watch Eurovision? La la la, the fix is around the corner.Look I don't think any of us here are claiming we know a fix to the problems of this world. All we're saying is that a complete societal collapse is going to lead to much worse tragedies and harm than not having one. Sure after such a collapse, maybe something better would arise in 50 or 100 years, but I could give fuck all about 50 or 100 years from now if I'm not likely to live to see it. Look at Inow for instance, he has a young daughter, don't you think that he wants the best possible future for her with as little misery as possible? In societal collapses, children and the elderly some of the first victims. Able-bodied adults will survive the best. The only sane route to trying to combat the corruption, inequality, suffering of the world is through small steps like electing better candidates or becoming involved in your communities and taking a bit of the burden onto ourselves. That's why I volunteer on the Board of my local Chamber of Commerce, and spend hours helping plan and pull off community events, why I attend economic meetings to discuss the future of my county, I'm trying to do my part to help ensure that everything people have built up lasts. You're disenfranchised and I understand that, but have you thought of ways you can help to be part of a solution instead of a victim or spectator? Rory wrote: Meanwhile in Venezuala, some poor guy's wife just died because the nation can't afford to import medical supplies. An American driver grins at low oil prices as he fills his tank. La la laThat's just life. Being able to worry about strangers far away is a first world luxury. Most of us are too busy focusing on keeping ourselves afloat and functioning that we don't have the luxury to think about how our good fortune affects others. At the end of the day, as long as me and those people that I know and consider to be friends (online friends count too) are okay I could give two shits about whats happening to faceless strangers 6,000 miles away. Sorry but I'm too used up by the end of the day to care, just being honest. _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:03 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  I don't know how many different ways I can say this: I'm not anticipating any joy from societal collspse. I'm not actively seeking to bring it about (I'm not that powerful, just a woman posting on a Forum). But I am expecting a dramatic economic collapse soon. That's not certain so it would be rational for you to argue against that. I don't see why I should be obliged to be "part of the solution" to a problem that was caused by national governments pandering to the interests of big business? Gambling away public money? Making banks too big to fail? Accepting their risk by putting public finances on the line? Pay me the wage of a bank CEO and then I'll consider being "part of the solution". _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:51 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  Rory wrote:Pay me the wage of a bank CEO and then I'll consider being "part of the solution".Which sure sounds an awful lot like the original point I made... You know, the one you took a giant emotional shit on?iNow wrote:I call bullshit.You don't want societal collapse. You want no longer to struggle financially or be made to feel inferior based on societal expectations or criteria for success that you didn't personally set or choose _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:17 am Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  Rory wrote:I don't know how many different ways I can say this: I'm not anticipating any joy from societal collspse. I'm not actively seeking to bring it about (I'm not that powerful, just a woman posting on a Forum).I get you, but that's the fallacy that everyone believes, "I'm just one person, what can I do to help?" I also don't think you will create the societal collapse. Statistically, in order to enact change on any scale you only need to influence ten percent of the group. So the obvious answer is you start small. You don't expect to enact major change right away. All of those successful grassroots movements generally start with one person just like yourself. I'm just an average dude, college dropout even, I'm broke as shit, and yet I'm helping make a difference in my community. Am I changing world problems? No, but this is just a stepping stone. And I didn't say that you would enjoy a societal collapse, I'm just pointing out the harsh realities if it were to happen. Quote:But I am expecting a dramatic economic collapse soon. That's not certain so it would be rational for you to argue against that.I think we could face another economic collapse again, but I don't think we will break down our governments and go full anarchy. I imagine it would be something like the recession or the great depression. Quote:I don't see why I should be obliged to be "part of the solution" to a problem that was caused by national governments pandering to the interests of big business? Gambling away public money? Making banks too big to fail? Accepting their risk by putting public finances on the line? Pay me the wage of a bank CEO and then I'll consider being "part of the solution".See that's the problem Rory, everyone gets this attitude of "well I didn't make the mess, why should I clean it up?" That's the thing though, no specific one person is responsible for it all. A lot of the problems we face today were set in motion decades ago, so the culpable individuals are long gone^1. The fact remains that there is a mess and it needs cleaning, sitting around bitching and whining isn't going to help, and by doing nothing an individual is just as guilty as the ones contributing to the mess. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Inaction is just as much of a response as action is. Example: if I had chose to ignore your reply, it would have been just as much of a message as me actively replying. ^1 Really it can be argued that a lot of the problems the world is facing is do to the lifestyles of those of us living in first world countries. Your average American uses 30 times more resources in their lifetime than the average Asian for instance. (There were other comparisons in college that I don't quite remember) _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:51 am Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  +1nice post. points well made. focused, still kind _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:29 am Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921  Thanks for the reply, Falconer, I used to believe that too: "power rests with individuals, look at Martin Luther King". I just don't buy that any longer. The problem is systemic; it is, as you say, beyond the responsibility of any given individual. But I'm not going to try to prop up a system that has always been about inequality of opportunity and the consecration of wealth. iNow - correct, I don't wish to struggle financially or be made to feel inferior. You should be a clairvoyant! _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim marnixR  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:23 am Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm Posts: 4883 Location: Cardiff, Wales  surely no-one can make you feel inferior but yourself - just don't let them dump that feeling onto you ! _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd) iNow  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:43 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm Posts: 5729 Location: Iowa  Rory wrote:I used to believe that too: "power rests with individuals, look at Martin Luther King". I just don't buy that any longer. The problem is systemic; it is, as you say, beyond the responsibility of any given individual.But the "system" is composed of individuals and individuals are the ONLY thing that give the system any power. Sure, some individuals have greater weight and power to sway that system than others. Don't disagree. If you dislike how that weight and power is being used, though, you must advocate for better ideas and use those better ideas to gain the support of those around you, to gain the support of those already in power who can help you to change it (maybe even taking on a powerful role yourself one day). Leverage networking effects. Use your voice to change the narrative and to improve the system and recall that there is safety and power in numbers. "It always seems impossible until it's done." _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan Rory  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:59 pm Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am Posts: 1921 $700 trillion in derivatives (10x the global economy). It's going to be... interesting. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
Rory
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 I can just about pay my rent and eat. Now you want me to save a government-sponsored capitalist shambles? _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
iNow
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:07 pm

Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5729
Location: Iowa

 Well, let's be honest... Bitching and moaning and whining about it don't appear to be helping you much, yeah? Why not explore a new tack? _________________iNow"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan
Rory
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:40 pm

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 Why don't you stop diverting to my personal circumstances and instead focus on the actual economy? _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
Rory
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:49 pm

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 Reminds me of something _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim
scoobydoo1
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:02 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am
Posts: 203
Location: Singapore

 iNow wrote:Why not explore a new tack?I agree. But rather than burdening Rory with saving 'the world' (used tongue and cheek), why not explore how one in Rory's situation can accelerate the progress of societal collapse - so that others (especially the 'privileged', however it is definited) may perhaps suffer as she has.Shall we take this approach instead? Fantasying about those we may or may not be envious of to 'suffer' as we have? Nevermind what would-be horrors of societal collapse may inflict on ourselves, focus instead on how we may derive pleasure from other's suffering as we have and more. Symptoms of schadenfreude, but let's not dwell on that.I think this would be a more productive outlet - to see how the process (of societal collapse) can be hastened within a time frame whereby she can witness it first hand instead.
marnixR
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4883
Location: Cardiff, Wales

 Rory wrote:Why don't you stop diverting to my personal circumstances and instead focus on the actual economy?because in a collapsed society you would no longer have to worry about the economy, since there is no longer any - but you still would have to worry about your personal survivalin fact, i'd say that for most people it lies in their power to change their personal circumstances, to a far greater extent than they have a chance of changing the overall economy(sorry if this sounds callous, but worrying about the economy is a luxury, whereas worrying about your personal circumstances is a necessity) _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)
Rory
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:47 pm

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

 scoobydoo - you can try and shame me, if you want. It won't work: I'm not ashamed of the fact that I want the people and institutions who ruined our economy to suffer, rather than ordinary citizens who never did anything wrong. You have billionaire bank CEOs still in their jobs, still prepared to gamble on $700 trillion derivatives. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who worked, paid their taxes and saved experience unemployment, under-employment, zero hours contracts, diminishing wages, rising costs of living, no interest on savings, no long-term prospects, reduction in standard of living.I'm not ashamed of being on the side of the ordinary citizen and nothing you can say will induce me to feel shame. marnix - if none of you are willing to discuss the economy, then why did you move it from the rant corner to the Economics thread? Well, party's over. "Kick Rory while she's down" thread won't get any further responses from me. _________________If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim marnixR  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:09 pm Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm Posts: 4883 Location: Cardiff, Wales  Rory wrote: marnix - if none of you are willing to discuss the economy, then why did you move it from the rant corner to the Economics thread? because you can try and adjust your response to the economy so that it deals you a better hand, whereas the chance of you as a person changing the overall economy for the better is pretty smallbut in the end it's still the economy, whether you look at it from the personal or the global perspectivehowever, if you want the economy discussed, which part of it do you want to discuss ? i hadn't realised you were so adamant that this should be about the economy of a collapsed society - it doesn't reflect in the thread title, and the only reason i placed it under Business & Economics is that it's closer to it in subject flavour than most other parts of the forum _________________"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd) scoobydoo1  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:39 pm Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am Posts: 203 Location: Singapore  Societal collapse - affects not just those whom you feel the blame of your and other's current predicament lies with, but 'everyone' - including those whom you may not be able to place the blame on. They too will have to face the horrors of a societal collapse along with you, but that may not matter all too much so long as those 'privileged' get to feel your 'pain'. You have misunderstood my participation here, I'm not trying to shame you in any way. I'm trying to get you to understand yourself a little better. My highlighting of schadenfreude was for your reference and benefit, so that you may be aware of what state of mind you are currently in, and hoping that you may be able to reflect on it and step back from the ledge before your negativity consume you entirely.If you detest your current career as much as you have stated, why not resign if you have the power to, or get yourself fired if you do not? Why harbour a 'wish' that everyone - including those who the fault not lie with to suffer the would-be horrors of a societal collapse? Falconer360  Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?) | Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:22 pm Original Member Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm Posts: 1023 Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington  Rory wrote:scoobydoo - you can try and shame me, if you want. It won't work: I'm not ashamed of the fact that I want the people and institutions who ruined our economy to suffer, rather than ordinary citizens who never did anything wrong. You have billionaire bank CEOs still in their jobs, still prepared to gamble on$700 trillion derivatives. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who worked, paid their taxes and saved experience unemployment, under-employment, zero hours contracts, diminishing wages, rising costs of living, no interest on savings, no long-term prospects, reduction in standard of living.I'm not ashamed of being on the side of the ordinary citizen and nothing you can say will induce me to feel shame. marnix - if none of you are willing to discuss the economy, then why did you move it from the rant corner to the Economics thread? Well, party's over. "Kick Rory while she's down" thread won't get any further responses from me.Rory, despite our differences in opinion I do respect you, to me this has never been a "kick Rory while she's down," thread. This has been a chance to discuss political views and to try and bridge the gap between our opinions. Your stance seems to be uncaring for the reality of the consequences, you are focused solely on your hatred and desire for revenge. Basically you are willing to cut your nose off to spite your face. Yes that is the reality of your desire for revenge, no matter what happens, those at the top will still be less damaged than those at the bottom. Despite my calm approach here, I understand your anger, I used to be just like you. Shit even today there are people who I would just love to watch the life fade out of, but I realized that my energy was better spent doing something productive. Even if I completely fail at lessening the problems, I at least know I tried to do something about it. _________________"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori
Pong
 Post subject: Re: i'd prefer a collapsed society (?)  |  Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:17 am
Original Member

Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 2:53 am
Posts: 232

 I know the logic that for things to improve, they must worsen to crisis. I was raised by radical leftists. "Revolutionary" pretty well sums up my upbringing.I also know poverty. To mate my personal situation with my ideology, then, was so glaringly obvious. The scientist in me held a deeper place in my spirit. In Pong's mind, the first priority there is knowing one's own biases and correcting for them. Even if it hurts. Plainly then, my thoughts as scripted by my upbringing, cued by my present situation, must be corrected.There are lots of other problems in this world where I may be a disinterested actor. Better I focus on those for the sake of others. Perhaps others will return the favour and look, objectively, upon those problems that affect me. Of course I need to hate something. So I cultivate indignation."injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" - Martin Luther King Jr.
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