FAQ
It is currently Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:20 pm


Author Message
Rory
Post  Post subject: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:38 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
Does UK economic policy have any dimensions beyond toggling interest rates?

It's like the global economy has trillions of parameters that determine the state of the UK economy and all that the Treasury has is an on/off switch for interest rates.

I don't think the government has the capability to fix the economy.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:03 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
devalue the pound ?

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:09 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
Oh, yes, they would score highly for that on the National Careers skills review.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:38 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
re-introduce the gold standard ! :twisted:

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:11 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
Let's stop pretending like a handful of people at the top of society are able to deliver an economic reality that meets the needs of ordinary citizens.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:28 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
i liked the alternative proposal to bailing out the banks, that was to split the bail-out money up amongst the adult population of the UK, and give everyone a nice christmas bonus

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:00 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5496
Location: Austin, Texas

Offline
Rory wrote:
Let's stop pretending like a handful of people at the top of society are able to deliver an economic reality that meets the needs of ordinary citizens.

Yet, so often, they both can and do.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:23 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
What do they actually do?

Are they the ones who drive the buses?

Or man the tills?

Or invent the next innovation?

No, the populace at large do that.

Treasury staff just sit in their cage and play interest on/off. :evil:

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:33 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5496
Location: Austin, Texas

Offline
Are you not posting from a nation that provides universal healthcare, maternity allowance, parental leave, childcare grants, free school meals, pensions, labor exchanges, housing benefits, disability allowance, jobseeker's allowance, and more?

I can understand being frustrated with your current lot and wanting things to improve, but you asked us to stop pretending so I'll ask you to stop pretending that "a handful of people at the top" aren't "able to deliver an economic reality that meets the needs of ordinary citizens."

You make it sound as if you're living in some dystopian mad max style hellscape forced to scrounge for grubs and battle apocalyptically with rampaging groups of marauders over shreds of rotting squirrel meat, yet in reality you have it better than many of my neighbors down the street here in the US, and especially better than folks in war torn deserts and poverty stricken villages elsewhere in the world.

tl;dr? Perspective is important and sometimes a few at the top can and do help those who need it. England isn't perfect, but you ARE provided with programs that many elsewhere are desperate for.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:46 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
Well, the thread has derailed from my original point (granted, I did most of the derailing) which was: in a hyperconnected and immensely complex economic environment, the Treasury's actual abilities to control the fate of the national economy are laughable.

I take your point, iNow, that our state infrastructure is determined and administered by the national government. It provides basic support for physiological and safety needs - but arguably it hinders higher needs on Maslow's hierarchy, especially self-actualisation. Try self-actualising when your every move is being monitored and controlled by state busybodies. That situation's tolerable for a while... but chronic unemployment, or any other circumstance that leads to long-term dependence on the state, turns your life into an existence. All you're doing in the end is struggling to make ends meet, keep a roof over your head, and not be harmed by others. I think that's why a lot of the socioeconomically deprived are, well, brusque and quick to defend themselves with aggression. They have to be that way to survive.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:24 am

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am
Posts: 461
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Offline
Quote:
I take your point, iNow, that our state infrastructure is determined and administered by the national government. It provides basic support for physiological and safety needs - but arguably it hinders higher needs on Maslow's hierarchy, especially self-actualisation. Try self-actualising when your every move is being monitored and controlled by state busybodies. That situation's tolerable for a while... but chronic unemployment, or any other circumstance that leads to long-term dependence on the state, turns your life into an existence. All you're doing in the end is struggling to make ends meet, keep a roof over your head, and not be harmed by others. I think that's why a lot of the socioeconomically deprived are, well, brusque and quick to defend themselves with aggression. They have to be that way to survive.


At the risk of staying off-topic I can understand where you are coming from with what I've quoted above - a while back I had a long(ish) period of unemployment due to mental health issues. Despite the fact they were giving me no money (I had money in the bank which meant I was not eligible for financial help and had to live of my savings - which is fair enough, although they did pay my national insurance contributions) I had to attend fortnightly meetings to discuss what I was doing to get back into work, they expected me to spend 3 hours a day searching for jobs on the government website which as you can imagine were not the sort of jobs a guy with a PhD should be applying for. These meetings were soul destroying (and didn't help my other issues). Being told by someone who didn't understand the field I work in, was unqualified to give the necessary advice and who pushed me to apply for unsuitable jobs really pissed me off. Luckily I was put on some new meds which worked and I found a new job despite their "assistance"...

_________________
"The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart"

- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:44 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
Amen! Somebody understands. Thanks, PhDemon :)

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:14 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5496
Location: Austin, Texas

Offline
Hope it doesn't seem like I misunderstand you. Pretty sure I'm entirely clear on your thinking, even empathetic (though perhaps that fails to come across in my words). I'm just sharing an alternative viewpoint and challenging what I see as flaws and weaknesses in your thinking.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:28 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
I know, I value that too. *hugs*

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
wireless
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:42 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 262

Offline
Rory wrote:
Does UK economic policy have any dimensions beyond toggling interest rates?

It's like the global economy has trillions of parameters that determine the state of the UK economy and all that the Treasury has is an on/off switch for interest rates.

I don't think the government has the capability to fix the economy.

Theresa May is now in power, we are leaving the European Union ( BREXIT ). GB has the power to do anything it wants. 8-)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:03 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
And the pound has "only" dropped by 6% so far

Wonder what will happen when interest rates pick up. How serviceable will public debt be under even slower growth?

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:21 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 962
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
Since this is the thread on UK economic policy, this seems like a good place for this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-court-delivers-blow-to-eu-exit-plan-giving-parliament-role-in-process/2016/11/03/36a98138-a1af-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html

Quote:
A senior British court on Thursday dealt a severe blow to Prime Minister Theresa May’s plans to begin the process of exiting the European Union early next year, ruling she must get Parliament’s approval before she acts.


So do you think Parliament will approve the exit or will they just veto it? This could muddle things up quite a bit. Thoughts on this?

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:34 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
They'll veto it. I never did think that the government would give the people what they want. Except, I pictured David Cameron still being in charge and giving us de facto remain under the guise of de jure leave.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:09 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 962
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
I think they are highly likely to veto it as well. I'm more interested in the outcome of this whole thing. They veto it and how does the public react? Just business as usual? Or will it stimulate people to get more involved in the politics that effects them and cause them to choose not to reelect a lot of incumbent positions? Or will it just be shrug and business as usual with no real change?

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:02 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
it's ironic the paradoxes you can achieve when one right meets another right

which is the proper democracy ? the will of the people in a referendum, or the will of the people as translated in parliament ?

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:23 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5496
Location: Austin, Texas

Offline
There are clear benefits to each approach, and obvious costs. With the parliamentary approach, at least minority opinion and rights are protected from the tyranny of the majority so often experienced in systems using a direct popular democracy.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:32 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 962
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
marnixR wrote:
which is the proper democracy ? the will of the people in a referendum, or the will of the people as translated in parliament ?


I have the feeling that the answer varies from person to person. And that it comes down to whether the person was one of the majority in the referendum, or if they agree with the majority of parliament.

Inow makes a very good point on this. Personally I feel like with either approach you will inevitably have a bunch of pissed off people.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:14 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
There might be a night or two of riots but then my guess is that Joe Public will quieten down - not because he feels any less strongly, but because he knows he is not being listened to so it is pointless to speak.

And do you really expect that MPs will canvas the opinions of their constituents?

Don't make me laugh

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:20 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
I like the BBC's new 'Reality Check Verdict' feature. It's like looking directly into the mouthpiece of government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37875675

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:56 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5496
Location: Austin, Texas

Offline
I suspect that a rather large portion of the population who said, "oh, holy hell... WTF did I do!?!" when voting in favor of Brexit are quietly relieved that someone else might step in and prevent their poor decision from being implemented. [/TechnocraticArgument]

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:54 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 404

Offline
Rory wrote:
There might be a night or two of riots but then my guess is that Joe Public will quieten down - not because he feels any less strongly, but because he knows he is not being listened to so it is pointless to speak.

And do you really expect that MPs will canvas the opinions of their constituents?

Don't make me laugh


The thing is, the breakdown of the actual numbers of voters show that it was a small portion of hte overall population, and only a little over half of that portion voted for brexit. Thus the assertion that there will be large push-back doesn't seem to hold water in my mind.

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:25 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
i wasn't allowed to vote because i'm not a UK citizen

the one thing i hate when people say i should shut up because "the people have spoken" - which is rather derogatory for the 48% of those who voted that didn't get their wish : are they not people too ?

still, if it's going to a period of economic pain and uncertainty, why prolong it ? just get it over and done with !

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:38 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
It was over half of 72% turnout. That's a lot of angry people.

Enough to make the London riots look like a tea party.

Personally I think the economy is going down Brexit or no.

In fact, Brexit would provide a convenient smoke screen for government.

"It's not the central banks, national debt, QE or zero interest rates. It's not that we didn't fix the 08 crisis. It's not that we made the problem gargantuan. It's BREXIT."

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:34 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 404

Offline
Rory wrote:
It was over half of 72% turnout. That's a lot of angry people.

Enough to make the London riots look like a tea party.

Personally I think the economy is going down Brexit or no.

In fact, Brexit would provide a convenient smoke screen for government.

"It's not the central banks, national debt, QE or zero interest rates. It's not that we didn't fix the 08 crisis. It's not that we made the problem gargantuan. It's BREXIT."



Barely over half of the 72%

Thus, only about 36% of the total population. That is not enough to create the chaos you suggest, with about 64% not wanting it or not caring enough to vote, and a portion of the yes vote documented as changing their mind after.

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:33 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Rory wrote:
"It's not the central banks, national debt, QE or zero interest rates. It's not that we didn't fix the 08 crisis. It's not that we made the problem gargantuan. It's BREXIT."


the one thing you can't blame on anything but brexit is the doubt amongst businesses whether they still can use the UK as a convenient access point into the EU - you really want to keep the period of uncertainty to a minimum, otherwise businesses will be forced to make investment decisions based on expectations rather than solid fact

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:40 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1895

Offline
The London riots took a very small minority of the population.

Leave supporters account for over 1/3 of the electorate.

The fact that Leave voters are more likely to be those left behind by globalisation means you can expect some rage.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: UK economic policy  |  Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:03 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4753
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Rory wrote:
The London riots took a very small minority of the population.

Leave supporters account for over 1/3 of the electorate.

The fact that Leave voters are more likely to be those left behind by globalisation means you can expect some rage.


indeed - a bit like the poll tax riots

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy