FAQ
It is currently Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:36 am


Author Message
marnixR
Post  Post subject: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:54 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4799
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
I'm no fan of Jeremy Corbyn, but I'm even less of a fan when media misrepresent an argument
the equivalence that Corbyn made was between the position of a Jewish person versus the state of Israel, and the position of a Muslim versus ISIS
this does not mean that he equates Israel with ISIS - maybe in his mind he does, but his actual words do not warrant the equivalence made by the media

imo it's perfectly OK to say that an ordinary Jewish person cannot be held responsible for the action of Israel, which is more or less equivalent to saying that an ordinary Muslim cannot be held responsible for the actions of ISIS

the trouble is that it's not the actual words but Corbyn's background and previous history that shape the discussion in the press

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:39 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1917

Offline
Kind of like how Remain sympathisers equate a desire to not be part of the EU, with racism. Or with a perception that one's own nation is superior to others. I have had that assumption levelled at me; honestly I don't believe England or the UK are "better" than other nations, but neither will I stand in silence as it is metaphorically torn to shreds by a non-citizen. May as well defend my own interests; it's blatantly apparent that no-one else will.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:02 am

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:45 pm
Posts: 239

Offline
marnixR wrote:
I'm no fan of Jeremy Corbyn, but I'm even less of a fan when media misrepresent an argument
the equivalence that Corbyn made was between the position of a Jewish person versus the state of Israel, and the position of a Muslim versus ISIS
this does not mean that he equates Israel with ISIS - maybe in his mind he does, but his actual words do not warrant the equivalence made by the media

imo it's perfectly OK to say that an ordinary Jewish person cannot be held responsible for the action of Israel, which is more or less equivalent to saying that an ordinary Muslim cannot be held responsible for the actions of ISIS

the trouble is that it's not the actual words but Corbyn's background and previous history that shape the discussion in the press


If enough Jewish people find offense at Corbyn's comparisons then I think we need to take their comments very seriously.

What occurred in the last war was tantamount ,in my eyes to some kind of a split in the fabric of social space time (I really don't think we can overstate what happened and the consequences we are still living with)

If someone like Corbyn is not able to choose his words a bit more carefully then he is not someone worthy to represent the Labour party (not that he ever was) .

Israel does have to be held accountable for its collective actions and there is a question in my mind whether a state can be founded on an exclusive religious claim to territory . This question was ignored/overridden when the exceptional circumstances of the Jews led to there being given (by the UN) their own such state.

If the people who paid for that decision had been satisfactorily compensated perhaps the present ongoing conflict could have been headed off at the past .

Is it now too late?


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:29 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4799
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
remember, I posted this under philosophy and not politics because I wanted to discuss the underlying logic

granted that Jewish people might be offended, but that is the political side of the argument

my statement is that logically speaking equating the status of an individual versus a larger entity to which s/he is deemed to belong (rightly or wrongly) is about the relationship of the individual versus the larger entity, and has no bearing on equating the two entities to which different individuals are deemed to belong

hence, stating that Jew stands to Israel as Muslim stands to ISIS is logically valid, without having to imply that Israel and ISIS even fall in the same class of entities

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:33 pm

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:45 pm
Posts: 239

Offline
marnixR wrote:
remember, I posted this under philosophy and not politics because I wanted to discuss the underlying logic

granted that Jewish people might be offended, but that is the political side of the argument

my statement is that logically speaking equating the status of an individual versus a larger entity to which s/he is deemed to belong (rightly or wrongly) is about the relationship of the individual versus the larger entity, and has no bearing on equating the two entities to which different individuals are deemed to belong

hence, stating that Jew stands to Israel as Muslim stands to ISIS is logically valid, without having to imply that Israel and ISIS even fall in the same class of entities


Now here is the quote I think you are getting at

"our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel and the Netanyahu government than our Muslism friends are responsible for those self styles Islamic States or organizations"

I have tried a few drafts at a reply to your point but I really think the political point is of more consequence than the narrow debating point around that quote.

True , the issue of the bias in the press is worth discussing and perhaps you think some of them (I haven't paid direct attention) have ridden roughshod over the text of his speech, but I think that is a separate issue .

As far as I can see Corbyn is doing very well getting his message across having gained control of the leadership of a very important political party with very little support amongst actual Labour voters.

He probably thinks the pain is worth the gain and so what if the Labour Party is holed below the waterline as a result?


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:41 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4799
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
that's indeed the quote

presumably that's his game : although he may in his mind equate Israel with ISIS, he can truthfully say that's not what he said - a sort of plausible deniabililty

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:21 am

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:45 pm
Posts: 239

Offline
marnixR wrote:
that's indeed the quote

presumably that's his game : although he may in his mind equate Israel with ISIS, he can truthfully say that's not what he said - a sort of plausible deniabililty


I think (I have only just learned the meaning of the term) that it may also be what is called "dog whistle politics" or even "talking out of the side of the mouth".


Top
Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:49 am
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 2:53 am
Posts: 219

Offline
MarnixR, right on! While it's clear you dislike Jeremy Corbyn, you judge his words on their own merit. Without prejudice!

marnixR wrote:
the trouble is that it's not the actual words but Corbyn's background and previous history that shape the discussion in the press

I nearly started a blog and essay series on the current "age of too much information". Traditionally our challenge was to acquire information, so we weren't too picky of the source. Now, our challenge is in filtering and rejecting information. I'd thought to chronicle our increasingly queasy relationship with information.

I think that blacklisting all information from some sources might be one filter we employ. You can block much with hardly any mental effort. So, if Jeremy Corbyn says 2+2 = 4 , there must be something fishy about that, because Jeremy Corbyn said it. We've done this in the past. I recall feminists who wouldn't judge an author until they knew it male or female. But it seems to me prejudice has lately spread through all classes, covering all kinds of information. Everything is suspect, or accepted, by affiliation...

...and that's why you took pains to disaffiliate yourself from Jeremy Corbyn, wasn't it?


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:49 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4799
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
the trouble with 24/7 news is that the news reporting is trying to run faster than the events do
it creates an environment where everything becomes news - and if everything is news, then nothing is

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:27 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5604
Location: Iowa

Offline
It also eliminates the time needed for much of the filtering/removal of complete BS and nonsense that used to happen before "news" was presented to us.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:52 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 988
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
iNow wrote:
It also eliminates the time needed for much of the filtering/removal of complete BS and nonsense that used to happen before "news" was presented to us.

You mean getting their facts straight instead of just running with the barest hint of a whisper on something?

Love how every now and then a "news" site will get word of some important person's death, normally through twitter, and then run with it. Only to have said person come out and claim that, no they were not dead and that their account had simply been hacked.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
Pong
Post  Post subject: Re: warped equivalence  |  Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:19 am
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 2:53 am
Posts: 219

Offline
A bit of Canadian pride here: Recommend Marshall McLuhan on this topic. This futurist in the 1960's predicted our internet, coined the terms "global village" and "the medium is the message". He also foresaw the need to filter. If we are lost at sea, he's a tether to solid ground before the flood.

There are actually services catering to news publishers, that anticipate news. At most basic they are merely warning of an upcoming summit or whatever, but I wonder how sophisticated in predicting chains of events they could be? I recall Sep 9th, 2001, when the leader of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance was assassinated I'd been reading Kipling's Kim and thought of The Great Game. I thought then "this will trigger a chain of events in the clandestine world". I reckon the 9/11 guys operated pretty independently of any Afghan based "mastermind", so I doubt there's a decisive link. But the point is news publishers would pay for predictive services on par with CIA if they could... and they would use the information quite differently...


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy