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Rory
Post  Post subject: Does anybody actually care about Europe? [BREXIT]  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:27 pm
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I may be mistaken, but I think nobody has bothered to post about the imminent UK exit from the EU.

Can't say I blame you, personally I would be vaguely in favour of remaining, but really I can't summon the effort to care anymore. Politics has become too 'big' (or too overpowering) to have any positive, meaningful impact on the day-to-day wellbeing of any given individual citizen.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:51 pm
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I care and have been following for months. It's a big effing deal. Practically zero benefit of leaving except maybe to appease a few with nationalistic or even xenophobic worldviews. There is, however, massive benefit to staying for Britain and for the rest of the worlds economies.

Admittedly, some of the news coverage has been awful and some has blown things out of proportion. Many people are understandably tuning this out as some sort of modern day version of Y2K, but the risk to many of us is real if British voters decide to turn inward and isolationist in this rapidly flattening interconnected open market world.

For those not sure what Rory and I are even talking about, here's a decent explainer: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/17/11963668/b ... -explained


John Oliver provides an accessible overview, too:





Rory wrote:
Politics has become too 'big' (or too overpowering) to have any positive, meaningful impact on the day-to-day wellbeing of any given individual citizen.

I understand feeling burned out and disengaged from politics. The reasons for doing so are myriad, but I believe you're incredibly mistaken on the core underlying point you've made. These decisions by our leaders have MASSIVE and MIND BOGGLING affect on our day to day lives, even if it's challenging to make that connection or comprehend how in real-time.

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:17 pm
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Rory wrote:
Does anybody actually care about Europe?

My levels in concern have been steadily depleted over time, but once in a while I allow myself to recharge by taking time out, and the cycle begins again.

I'm curious. Did you mean concern for member states still in the EU after a possible exit by the UK, or did you mean concern for the UK after a possible exit? At this point in time, I'm not sure I am able to look at it from a wider picture of the continent itself.

Some of the news articles I've come across tend to tackle the topic from one or the other side, and only occasionally speculating how the economical/political dynamics of the entire zone may change. News articles published from UK sources tend to have a perspective of how will a possible exit 'harm/benefit us'. I have noticed a similar trend from articles speculating from the perspective of the remaining member states in EU.

I'm not quite sure how to (or I should) even begin to formulate an opinion on it.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:51 pm
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Scone goblins :lol:

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:24 pm
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I heard it had something to do with the immigrants. That if it was not part of the EU, England could easily forbid immigrants entering the country or something like that...


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:40 pm
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being in Europe is a bit like having blanket vaccination protection : people tend to forget how bad / awkward things were beforehand

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:23 pm
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So, what do we predict will happen tomorrow?

I think the UK will leave the EU, by a very narrow margin.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:32 pm
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I think they'll remain, but I'm not sure of the margin. I say this because polls predicted similar chances of leaving last year with the Scotland vote, but lots of people chose for them to stay, too.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:35 pm
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Okay - I'll bet you a metaphorical twenty dollars :D

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:50 am
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Metaphorical? Right then, make it $200!

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:09 am
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iNow wrote:
Metaphorical? Right then, make it $200!

You have a bet!

I project that the UK will leave the EU, just because it will make things more interesting with the upheaval than them remaining in.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:38 am
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That's true... even if it's an economic disaster, at least it won't be boring.

Honestly, the Tory government is like death by a thousand yawns.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:45 am
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this is what a friend of mine posted on Facebook

Quote:
I have been living in South Wales for almost half my life. I have an English wife and a daughter who was born in Wales. I received part of my education in Swansea and Cardiff. I have a job: I look after national heritage in a museum, where I work hard because I am committed and loyal to my employer.
I pay my taxes to HMRC and my mortgage to the British subsidiary of an international bank. We spend most of our family holidays in England and Wales. Every penny I earn is recycled into the British economy. I speak English fluently and some Welsh, visit museums and historic houses and enjoy Welsh cakes and Cornish cream tea with scones (cream first, then jam, of course).
I give my spare time to benefit my community: I have volunteered for a national park, a mountain rescue team, various environmental and heritage organisations, a society promoting geology and I run monthly public science events, all unpaid and in my own time.
Despite all this I am not British. I am an immigrant.
My move from my native Germany was made possible by Article 45 of the "Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union" which guarantees freedom of movement of workers. Successfully doing any business is unthinkable without freedom of movement, and even going on holiday abroad would be cumbersome.
Listening to the debate about the EU referendum you could be forgiven to think that Article 45 is the only reason the EU exists. However, there is enough information out there to demonstrate that this is not the be all and end all of the EU. I don’t need to recite the multiple benefits the EU has brought the people of Europe:
- civil liberties,
- social equality,
- workers’ rights,
- environmental protection,
- cutting edge research,
- economic development,
- security,
- crime prevention, and
- political cohesion.
Nobody disputes that unregulated immigration can cause problems. Non-integration of people moving to other countries can cause problems. People abusing the social security system definitely cause problems – although I personally am aware of more British than foreign people abusing the system which I pay towards with my taxes.
The biggest problems of all are caused by fear; in this case, the fear of being powerless and the fear of losing your identity.
These fears cannot be reconciled by "taking back control" and leaving Europe's Round Table, to use an Arthurian analogy. How much is that "control" worth against losing:
- equal pay,
- gender non-discrimination,
- maternity and paternity rights,
- paid holidays,
- working week limit,
- establishment of right to worker representatives consultation and representation,
- health & safety legislation.
All based on European, not British legislation. These laws would change if Britain was not a member of the EU - there is no speculation or scaremongering about that. Laws either apply or they don't.
If I were allowed to vote in the referendum this week (as an immigrant, I am not) I would vote to maintain the longest period of prosperity and peace in Europe.
I would vote to keep in place the protection EU laws grant against a national government eroding employment and environmental legislation.
I would vote to retain European investment in research and culture.
I would vote REMAIN.

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:43 pm
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marnixR wrote:
this is what a friend of mine posted on Facebook

Apparently some Germans have placed a list of seductive 'counter offers' on the table in hopes that the British will accept. :D

http://time.com/4379544/brexit-referend ... er-soccer/


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:43 pm
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Even if the British public do vote to leave, I am not convinced that any UK government would actually let us leave... to paraphrase a BBC article,"it's like The Eagles' Hotel California... you can check out any time you like but you can never leave."

I think David Cameron would give the British public a proverbial 'pat on the head' and then stonewall discussions for two years or so... secure some terms and conditions for exit which mean that we are, de facto, in - even if we are, de jure, out.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:03 pm
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still, for such a momentous decision, would you accept the verdict to leave if the leave camp won with 50.1% ?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:28 pm
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Well, no, but where do you draw the line?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:02 pm
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Back to boring f$%ing politics :(

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:08 am
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Found this overview informative (click to enlarge):

http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKER ... Look-Like/

Image

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:05 am
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I'll be needing that twenty dollars, since the pound dropped 10% overnight :roll:

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:28 am
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Also - Cameron will be gone by October :D

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:35 pm
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Indeed. I owe you $200 virtual, which will be significantly more difficult to hand to you given the way markets are all crashing right now. Yay for another self-induced global recession!! At least the value of the pound is crashing relative to the dollar, so it will be easier for me to pay you this (virtual) amount. :roll:

Some pretty outstanding charts and overviews available here: http://ritholtz.com/2016/06/brexit-meltdown/

This one is somewhat telling:

Image


The US opened 3-4% down about a half hour ago and is likely to drop the rest of today.

Ugh... another victory for ignorance and xenophobia. This needs to stop.


The old folks are sticking it to the young with this one.

Image

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:46 pm
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iNow wrote:

Image


Wow... this is interesting....


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:44 pm
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You're probably going to hate me (or, at least, my 'ignorant' stance) for saying this, but. Ahem.

I can sympathise with the Brexit-ers!

50% of the young category will be in higher education, or recently graduated. They have virtually no experience of the job market. They almost certainly have no idea how it feels to be long term unemployed.

They have no idea how it feels to pluck up the courage to go to yet another PhD interview, the only thing you really want, and to see the studentship go to some guy who just arrived in the country a few months ago.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:53 pm
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Rory wrote:
50% of the young category will be in higher education, or recently graduated. They have virtually no experience of the job market. They almost certainly have no idea how it feels to be long term unemployed.

They have no idea how it feels to pluck up the courage to go to yet another PhD interview, the only thing you really want, and to see the studentship go to some guy who just arrived in the country a few months ago.

Perhaps, but the vote to exit will make their likelihood of these negative experiences significantly higher. Their opportunity and potential have both been truncated in a big way for many years to come.


https://next.ft.com/content/f4dcdf62-39 ... a9b15a8ee7
Quote:
A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another.

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:08 pm
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Most young Britons don't have the luxury of feeling adversely affected by the imminent lack of free movement.

It is only those with reasonable wealth to begin with who feel the benefit of the freedom to travel and work within the region.

The rest are tied to their localities, and watch from the doorstep, as they are outcompeted by their wealthier peers.

Once you hit rock bottom, all of the threats of economic doom from analysts cannot touch you.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:03 pm
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Rory wrote:
Once you hit rock bottom, all of the threats of economic doom from analysts cannot touch you.

Understand the sentiment, but fundamentally disagree (especially viewed in context of potential).

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:14 pm
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"You've been unemployed for two years, but don't you dare vote Leave, because this society honours your potential."

You'd have to be a nutcase to not laugh.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:27 pm
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If I were unemployed and/or under educated in Britain, I'd not be laughing.

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/b ... -recession

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:58 pm
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I don't think you're grasping my point. And I don't blame you since you probably lack first-hand experience of that precarious existence.

In the end you come to normalise chronic unemployment. It is a sentence without an end date. It is your new reality. A news report suggesting that a Leave vote means more of the same, is not scary. It is a promise of more Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays. If social justice existed in this country, that prospect would be scary. But trust me, it ceases to be scary.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:03 pm
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I hadn't missed your point, at least, don't think I did. My point is this:

If the aim is to reduce chronic unemployment, then a vote to Leave is a massive mistake since it harms that goal.

I grasp that people often become apathetic and get to a point where they feel nothing matters, no sense caring, etc., especially when unemployed or lacking opportunity for too long.

The intelligent position here, however, is that people don't want to remain chronically unemployed and voting to Remain offers significantly better opportunity and potential to achieve that particular end.

Either way, my instincts on this are that the vote was much more about immigration than about economics, even though the economic impact will be unnecessarily painful and the impact on immigration practically nil.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:18 pm
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At some point, hope becomes irrational.

Is it rational to look at a graph that suggests EU membership improves employment prospects and, after two years (some poor people, much longer) of unemployment under those conditions, to hope that EU membership will save you?

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Would you deem it appropriate to hand an academic paper to a survivor of domestic abuse and expect it to heal their psyche?

Why are you expecting that level of intellectualisation of what is emotional turmoil for victims of the global financial crisis?

A box and whisker plot does not a therapy make.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:14 pm
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The iNow has gone quiet. I'm sorry, I know I'm being illogical.

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:21 am
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iNow wrote:
I hadn't missed your point, at least, don't think I did. My point is this:

If the aim is to reduce chronic unemployment, then a vote to Leave is a massive mistake since it harms that goal.

I grasp that people often become apathetic and get to a point where they feel nothing matters, no sense caring, etc., especially when unemployed or lacking opportunity for too long.

The intelligent position here, however, is that people don't want to remain chronically unemployed and voting to Remain offers significantly better opportunity and potential to achieve that particular end.

Either way, my instincts on this are that the vote was much more about immigration than about economics, even though the economic impact will be unnecessarily painful and the impact on immigration practically nil.


Is the job situation tha bad? are immigrants taking over key job positions?


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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:14 am
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Any thoughts on how the remaining EU member states ought to punish the UK for their Brexit?


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:14 pm
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M_Gabriela wrote:
Is the job situation tha bad? are immigrants taking over key job positions?


not really - the jobs they have are usually the low paid ones, which ensures that these jobs remain low paid, including for some UK citizens who can't get the higher paid jobs and have the option of low pay or unemployment

on the other hand, i heard some people from Wales claim they voted for the Leave camp because of the number of immigrants coming into the country - surely that must come from the papers and not from firsthand experience because the number of immigrants in Wales is pretty low

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:26 pm
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As many of you will know, due to the international nature of scientific research, UK Labs have a high proportion of EU workers. I was reading a BBC article this morning, on the likely effect of Brexit on UK R&D, whuch suggested that the potential increase in student fees for EU students studying in the UK would "level the playing field" with international students studying in the UK.

Why is it that when we're talking about making opportunities for international students it's described as "levelling the playing field", but when we're talking about making opportunities for white UK nationals it's "racist"?

I have worked closely with scientists from the EU and am personally very fond of many.

Do I love them enough to allow them to monopolise the Science I live for?

Erm, no.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:09 pm
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
Any thoughts on how the remaining EU member states ought to punish the UK for their Brexit?

Punishment is much less likely than contagion. Expect Spain to seriously explore leaving next while in parallel Scotland, Ireland, and even the city of London itself consider breaking away from Little England so their EU membership can remain intact.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:21 pm
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Which Little England?

The one that brought you Newton's Laws, the nature of DNA and structure of the atom.

That little England.

At least I don't live in a country in which toddlers are able to accidentally shoot their own parents.

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:30 pm
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iNow wrote:
Punishment is much less likely than contagion. Expect Spain to seriously explore leaving next while in parallel Scotland, Ireland, and even the city of London itself consider breaking away from Little England so their EU membership can remain intact.

Would the EU accept their application?

Wouldn't one of the main reasons to want to be part of the EU is the economical benefits and convenience applicants receive, otherwise why do it? The question the Union should be asking is what do the applicants have to offer in return. Will the UK even allow the secession? Will the Union accept non sovereign states into their fold?


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:52 pm
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Rory wrote:
Which Little England?

The one that brought you Newton's Laws, the nature of DNA and structure of the atom.

That little England.

At least I don't live in a country in which toddlers are able to accidentally shoot their own parents.

Calling it Great Britain just doesn't feel correct right now. I've seen others use the replacement Little England these last few days and borrowed it here since IMO it encapsulates the small thinking needed for such a disastrous choice to be made. Let's face it, England will get MUCH smaller in nearly every conceivable way as a result of this choice.

Also, I recognize this is a thread in Politics about an important topic, but there's simply no need to make things personal or snippy. There's no reason we can't remain cordial even when expressing differing views.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:56 pm
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scoobydoo1 wrote:
iNow wrote:
Punishment is much less likely than contagion. Expect Spain to seriously explore leaving next while in parallel Scotland, Ireland, and even the city of London itself consider breaking away from Little England so their EU membership can remain intact.

Would the EU accept their application?

Obviously none of us can predict the future, but the strength of the EU comes from both numbers and reach and I suspect they would.

scoobydoo1 wrote:
Wouldn't one of the main reasons to want to be part of the EU is the economical benefits and convenience applicants receive, otherwise why do it? The question the Union should be asking is what do the applicants have to offer in return. Will the UK even allow the secession? Will the Union accept non sovereign states into their fold?

All good questions, but the likelihood of these events is drastically higher today than it was on Thursday.

Also, whether or not others leave Britain to stay in the union or stay in Britain and leave the EU, trade policies will essentially mandate that all of the same regulations and restrictions on all transactions still be in place.

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paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:34 pm
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Rory wrote:
Which Little England?

The one that brought you Newton's Laws, the nature of DNA and structure of the atom.

That little England.

At least I don't live in a country in which toddlers are able to accidentally shoot their own parents.


All of which have been built upon, clarified, and in the last case, superseded by teams of international researchers.

You are being very nationalist and shortsighted.

Plus down right rude and petty with the last comment.

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scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:39 pm
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The reason I asked those questions was because of the EU membership criteria that uses the word 'European Country'. An internal state even with drawn boundaries does not satisfy the Copenhagen criteria as one if it does not secede from the UK and become it's own sovereign state if I'm not mistaken.

Once a member state invokes Article 50 and submits it's intention to withdraw from the Union, reapplications only applies to that country specifically, and any newly seceded state from that country are considered 'new applicants', and will have to apply for the first time as a sovereign state, that is if it satisfy the eligibility criteria. Plus, applications does not guarantee membership.

As part of my former profession, I find this all very interesting.


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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:17 pm
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Rory wrote:
As many of you will know, due to the international nature of scientific research, UK Labs have a high proportion of EU workers. I was reading a BBC article this morning, on the likely effect of Brexit on UK R&D, whuch suggested that the potential increase in student fees for EU students studying in the UK would "level the playing field" with international students studying in the UK.

Why is it that when we're talking about making opportunities for international students it's described as "levelling the playing field", but when we're talking about making opportunities for white UK nationals it's "racist"?

I have worked closely with scientists from the EU and am personally very fond of many.

Do I love them enough to allow them to monopolise the Science I live for?

Erm, no.


Are you saying that there are more international students doing their PhD than British students? I find that hard to believe.. But I don't live there....so..


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:09 pm
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No, that's not what I'm saying.

"Given that the financial contribution of non-EU students is significantly more important to the UK Higher Education sector... [Brexit] may even level the playing field [for international students] in terms of being able to secure student visas to study in the UK"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36286057

My point is, that my rationale for leaving is to level the playing field for UK nationals. If you use that phrase in reference to international students, it's treated as a noble idea. If you use that phrase in reference to UK nationals, you are vilified for being 'racist'.

Well, is it fair for UK nationals to be constantly treated as second class citizens in their own country?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:55 pm
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Rory wrote:
my rationale for leaving is to level the playing field for UK nationals. (snip) is it fair for UK nationals to be constantly treated as second class citizens in their own country?

I'm confused by these comments given the facts I've seen. Here are but a few:

http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/6/ ... xenophobia
Quote:
The key assumption of the "rational concern" thesis is that immigrants are actually hurting the British economy. It only make sense to see hostility to immigration as rational if immigrants are actually harming native-born Brits.

But this isn’t the case. Take Frum’s core claim — that immigration was ruining the British housing market. "The median house price in London already amounts to 12 times the median local salary," Frum writes. "Rich migrants outbid British buyers for the best properties; poor migrants are willing to crowd more densely into a dwelling than British-born people are accustomed to tolerating."

The logic of Frum’s argument is directly contradictory. He seems to be arguing that rich migrants are raising British housing costs, while poor migrants are lowering it by living in higher-density housing.

But setting aside this weirdness, the truth is that migrants aren’t transforming British housing in any meaningful sense. Most of British housing demand is domestic; foreign born-residents only make up about 13 percent of Britain’s population. And while migrants may live in different kinds of housing early on, that changes quickly. "The longer they stay," a 2011 London School of Economics study finds, "the more their housing consumption resembles that of similar indigenous households."

If anything, migrants have a positive effect on the UK housing market — specifically, because they’re both capable of doing critical construction work and actually willing to do it. "The Chartered Institute of Building points out that any caps on immigration will harm housebuilding rates, as not enough British-born nationals are either trained or interested in construction careers, and migrants have been filling the gap," the Guardian’s Dawn Foster writes.

The debate over housing mirrors the broader debate over migration’s effect on Britons. Leave campaigners, for instance, frequently argued that migrants were taking British jobs. Nigel Farage, head of the far-right UK Independence Party, once infamously proposed a law that would legalize discrimination against foreign-born workers in favor of hiring out-of-work British citizens.

Yet when a 2016 study, also from the London School of Economics, analyzed this specific claim using new data, it found, conclusively, "that the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers."

What about wages? Is Britain being flooded by low-skill workers from EU countries, willing to work for low pay and thus undercutting native-born Brits?

The new LSE study looked at that as well. "There is also little effect of EU immigration on inequality through reducing the pay and jobs of less skilled UK workers," the LSE authors write. "Changes in wages and joblessness for less educated UK born workers show little correlation with changes in EU immigration."

This is consistent with international studies on the effect of migration on wages in other places. "Most of...the literature suggests that the effect on native workers' wages is neutral or positive," my colleague Dylan Matthews explains.

(snipped section re: how immigrants also don't diminish social services)

The bottom line, then, is that there is no good evidence that immigration was doing serious harm to native-born Britons. British attitudes towards immigration once again appear untethered to a rational assessment of the costs and benefits of migration.

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:46 pm
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Rory wrote:
No, that's not what I'm saying.

"Given that the financial contribution of non-EU students is significantly more important to the UK Higher Education sector... [Brexit] may even level the playing field [for international students] in terms of being able to secure student visas to study in the UK"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36286057

My point is, that my rationale for leaving is to level the playing field for UK nationals. If you use that phrase in reference to international students, it's treated as a noble idea. If you use that phrase in reference to UK nationals, you are vilified for being 'racist'.

Well, is it fair for UK nationals to be constantly treated as second class citizens in their own country?


It is not racist. It is just discriminatory because you were part of the EU so EU students were able to study in the UK and British in EU countries.
And second, I am pretty sure that there weren't that many foreign students to worry about academic positions for the British.

When the idea of this referendum started? And who started it?


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:58 am
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iNow - So, if the freedom of movement and lowered tuition fees were to disappear for EU students/academics, would that represent a competitive advantage or disadvantage for UK nationals?

I'm using Science as an example because that's the field I care about; no doubt it applies to other sectors also.

M_Gabriela - the freedom to move/study/work only benefits those with moderate wealth and social status to begin with. Do you think it helps a UK national, who is qualified to take up a role but who has £100 to their name and no connections (because they are the 'poor relation' nobody in academia wants to be seen with), that they are technically allowed to work/study in another EU country?

The only people who benefit on a personal level from EU membership are the priveleged.

As you can tell, I see this more as a division between wealthy and deprived than a division between races. There will undoubtedly be impoverished would-be scientists in other EU countries, and if I could embrace anyone, it would be them. They are fighting the same fight. They derive zero benefit from the freedom to move/study/work within the EU. They are my brothers and sisters.

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M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:23 am
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Rory wrote:
M_Gabriela - the freedom to move/study/work only benefits those with moderate wealth and social status to begin with. Do you think it helps a UK national, who is qualified to take up a role but who has £100 to their name and no connections (because they are the 'poor relation' nobody in academia wants to be seen with), that they are technically allowed to work/study in another EU country?


So you're saying that the British themselves (probably the ones that voted remain, surely for you) are discriminating those British nobody wants to hang out with; and by impeding immigration, you are helping them.

How about the other countries that are part of the EU? Do they receive as many immigrants as the UK? so much that their jobs are being put at risk too? do you have information about that?

It seems that recession is a worldwide problem... what is going on with the economy?


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