FAQ
It is currently Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:51 pm


Author Message
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:36 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
When the idea of this referendum started? And who started it?

PM David Cameron was facing a tough reelection last year and was facing challenges from another member of his own Conservative party. To assuage concerns he basically said, "listen. elect me and I promise we'll do this clean. we'll setup a vote about whether we should remain or leave the EU. we'll let the people decide." He figured all would agree staying was far better than leaving for the myriad reasons we're reading about this week and he managed to win a difficult election. Problem is he miscalculated the power of misinformation and xenophobia, and the populace voted to leave in large numbers BEFORE understanding what leaving actually meant or just to have their outrage heard. Oops.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:49 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Rory wrote:
They are my brothers and sisters.

Not sure what to tell you. The evidence is clearly not in your favor here and contradicts your seeminglly intuition based conclusions.

If your concerns are rooted in economic inequality, then you and folks who feel the same as you should focus specifically on addressing that.

Leaving the EU, despite the continued propaganda and falsehoods and misinformation suggesting otherwise, simply doesn't.

IMO, immigration is a simple scapegoat and the issues at play here are more xenophobic than economic. This point gets further validated when actually looking at the reality based financial data and clear economics of the situation, though I stipulate that economics sometimes flies in the face of what one might call instinct or colloquial common sense.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:29 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
It seems that recession is a worldwide problem... what is going on with the economy?

Perhaps too broad a question for this specific thread, but wage gains haven't kept pace with productivity gains, legislation and regulation nearly always ignores the needs of the many in favor of the needs of the well connected wealthy, and demand remains low since the largest recession since the Great Depression itself that we experienced just a few short years ago, and yet our leadership seems unwilling to enact the types of fiscal spending programs needed to put people to work en masse and despite the historically low borrowing rates at which they could do so.

From Krugman this morning: "from a macro perspective, Europe is a depressed economy with inflation well below a reasonable target, desperately in need of more demand."

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:16 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
iNow - I like the way you completely ignored the question I directed to you, and instead commented on a brother/sister trifle expressed to M_Gabriela.

The point you seem unable to comprehend is that (English) UK nationals are so fed up of living without hope that any kind of change is better than none. Even with uncertainty. Even with scaremongering. Even with the pound bottoming out. Even with 'going to the back of the queue' for US trade deals.

Telling somebody who is unemployed, or (worse) trapped in employment they hate, that Leave risks unemployment? Tell me another one Stephen King because the only fear I sense is coming from the priveleged and the City. Not from the neglected masses. Frankly when you patronise us by saying we "didn't know what we were voting for", it only incentivises the cutting of ties.

M_Gabriela - I literally don't understand your post.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:35 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 507

Offline
Rory wrote:
iNow - I like the way you completely ignored the question I directed to you, and instead commented on a brother/sister trifle expressed to M_Gabriela.

The point you seem unable to comprehend is that (English) UK nationals are so fed up of living without hope that any kind of change is better than none. Even with uncertainty. Even with scaremongering. Even with the pound bottoming out. Even with 'going to the back of the queue' for US trade deals.

Telling somebody who is unemployed, or (worse) trapped in employment they hate, that Leave risks unemployment? Tell me another one Stephen King because the only fear I sense is coming from the priveleged and the City. Not from the neglected masses. Frankly when you patronise us by saying we "didn't know what we were voting for", it only incentivises the cutting of ties.

M_Gabriela - I literally don't understand your post.

The problem is, the ONLY demographic that thinks the way you do are those over 50. Everyone else wanted to stay, but not enough turned out and voted to sway the already tethered crowd that doesn't have to deal with the repurcussions.

Also you keep going on about the "neglected masses". Cite your source statistics.

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:55 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Rory wrote:
The point you seem unable to comprehend is that (English) UK nationals are so fed up of living without hope that any kind of change is better than none.

I comprehend it just fine, I simply find their position unsupportable, unrooted in reality, and to be perfectly frank extremely uninformed, immature, and childish.

The anger is understandable. Voting on that anger in a way that harms ones own self-interests is not.

As with climate change and evolution denial and outrage against vaccines and GMOs and all of the other nonsense we see, this Brexit vote serves as yet another plain example of how we now seem live in a post-factual democracy.

The issues in Britain, especially the specific ones you cite, were the result of a lack of public funding. Immigration and open boarders and EU membership were not the problem. Austerity politics were.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:35 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Please. Most young people live in a fairyland; I used to when I was 21. Lack of experience convinces you you're invincible and that other people will care about your plight, if only you first care about theirs. The real world knocks that out of you.

iNow - I will go buy a megaphone so that I can broadcast the fact that you think, if only Brexit-ers had voted Remain, there is a line on a graph somewhere that suggests their chronic unemployment is slightly less likely inside the EU. Maybe they can read it over their 10p noodle dinner and smile.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:51 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 507

Offline
Rory,

Do you plan on supplying any sort of actual verifiable data, as everyone is supposed to on a science forum?

Or are you simply going to continue to ignore all the information supplied that shows you to be wrong?

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:34 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
No, I'm not going to post any economic data.

There's nothing you can tell me about how it feels to be a neglected UK national.

Which is ultimately the basis for most of the Leave voters' decision.

If you think that the underlying emotional reason for why our country is leaving the EU, is not important, then jack in the thread if you want.

I promise I won't cry :lol:

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:36 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am
Posts: 203
Location: Singapore

Offline
So, how shall and can the EU punish the UK even more than it already has self-inflicted, and by extension punish the neglected UK nationals even more?

Thoughts?


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:01 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
Rory wrote:
iNow - I will go buy a megaphone so that I can broadcast the fact that you think, if only Brexit-ers had voted Remain, there is a line on a graph somewhere that suggests their chronic unemployment is slightly less likely inside the EU. Maybe they can read it over their 10p noodle dinner and smile.

I've watched this whole argument on here devolve into the pettiness that I've quoted and all I have to say is: so what about emotions? Voting to leave is the same as cutting off your nose to spite your face. "Things are already bad enough. So fuck it all! Let it burn" is an immature and overly emotional response to something that should have been approached by cold hard reason.

You've stated that the people in Britain were without hope and they just could no longer care. Well since you like to deal in anecdotes and not hard data, here's one for you. When my depression was at it's worst, and life felt it wouldn't ever get better and I just wanted to put a bullet in my brain. The only thing that stopped me from doing it was the slightest bit of hope that it may someday get better. I got up and slogged on through it every day. And I know you'll argue that there isn't any hope that it will get better, but that's a lie. There is always potential that it will be better some day, so there is always hope to be found. I was in a much darker place and I still managed to find that sliver of hope, the difference was I allowed myself to think rationally and didn't follow the emotional urges. Something the Brexit voters can't say.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:39 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 507

Offline
Rory wrote:
No, I'm not going to post any economic data.

Which is ultimately the basis for most of the Leave voters' decision.

If you think that the underlying emotional reason for why our country is leaving the EU, is not important, then jack in the thread if you want.


You have YET to actually demonstrated that that is ANYONES reason though. All you have done is whine about how you feel that you are a better human then anyone that wasnt born on the Island,

Why should that level of bollocks post be given the time of day, especially when you have been explicitly asked to back your assertions?

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:50 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Rory wrote:
No, I'm not going to post any economic data.

There's nothing you can tell me about how it feels to be a neglected UK national


I agree with Rory that for most people the decision was based on a gut feel and emotion
the economic predictions were not at all clear-cut, and could easily be dismissed by whatever camp who didn't like them as "scaremongering"

the main feelings that imo swung the decision were the fear of uncontrolled immigration, annoyance with high-handedness of EU officials on matters where many thought nations should be sovereign, and for many Labour voters a loathing for anything that David Cameron and George Osborne stood for

economic factors were only background noise which for many people hardly entered the picture

P.S. and no, I don't have any quotations from the Internet to back me up, this is my own analysis of the situation as seen by someone who lives in the country and can see and hear what's going on in the here and now - I feel that my powers of analysis are well enough developed not to have to rely on second-hand reporting

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:32 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Rory wrote:

M_Gabriela - I literally don't understand your post.


Ok. No problem.


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:20 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Paleoichneum - from news reports and, you know, actually talking to people.

If you want to believe otherwise I couldn't give a rat's ass.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
paleoichneum
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:03 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 507

Offline
Rory wrote:
Paleoichneum - from news reports and, you know, actually talking to people.

If you want to believe otherwise I couldn't give a rat's ass.

This is a science forum. Behave appropriately. And be civil. You are being immature at the moment.

_________________
The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:03 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Rory wrote:
If you want to believe otherwise I couldn't give a rat's ass.

This really isn't needed and I think you know that already without me saying it.
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep things civil.

EDIT: x-posted with paleoichneum

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:17 am
Posts: 249
Location: US Pacific NorthWest

Offline
Gravely concerned. The EU brought an unprecedented length of peace and economic stability. It would be terrible if this is the start of Europe descending into the type of nationalistic aggressions (sometimes coupled with religious zealotry) from the past where nations the size of Texas counties pounded the crap out of each other every few decades (and required American gold and blood to stop).

But I understand the frustration of watching unbridled liberalism lead to self destructive policies such as nearly uncontrolled immigration, completely ineffective intelligence about internal and domestic threats, onerous regulations requiring an army of lawyers, or PHd for the smallest business etc. where a voter seems to have zero influence over those same policies.


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:48 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Lynx_Fox wrote:
It would be terrible if this is the start of Europe descending into the type of nationalistic aggressions (sometimes coupled with religious zealotry) from the past...

It appears terrible is exactly what's happening already.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/hat ... d=40164257
Quote:
Hate crimes rose 57 percent between last Thursday and Sunday in the U.K. compared to the same time frame last month, according to the National Police Chiefs' Council, an organization representing British police chiefs, as a populist rage toward immigrants has been unleashed in the wake of the so-called Brexit vote.
(snip)
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), a group that represents 500 mosques, schools and associations, released a statement on its website claiming that "over 100 hate incidents" had taken place as a result of the Brexit vote.

Polish immigrants, who work many low wage jobs in the U.K., represent another group who has experienced intimidation in recent days.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:07 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
a friend of mine on Facebook, who lives in the south of England but was born in Stoke-on-Trent, and still has friends and family there, made the following comments : "I respect my brexit supporting friends who voted that way for reasons of sovereignty and the economy, but the racist monster that has been unleashed in the north is truly scary."

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:15 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
How about the other countries that are part of the EU? Do they receive as many immigrants as the UK?

Some of them receive quite a bit more:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911
(click to enlarge)

Image

Quote:
Although Germany has had the most asylum applications in 2015, Hungary had the highest in proportion to its population, despite having closed its border with Croatia in an attempt to stop the flow in October. Nearly 1,800 refugees per 100,000 of Hungary's local population claimed asylum in 2015.

Sweden followed close behind with 1,667 per 100,000.

The figure for Germany was 587 and for the UK it was 60 applications for every 100,000 residents. The EU average was 260.


Image


The above focuses more on the migrant crisis and those fleeing from war torn lands like Syria, though. Looking at net migration per 1,000 inhabitants, however, doesn't much change the overall picture:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... statistics
(click to enlarge)

Image

And as you can see at this wiki, the graph above reinforces the same point that nearly 10 other EU countries have higher net immigration than UK: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ation_rate

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:58 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
iNow and Paleoichneum - Actually I matched my tone to that of Paleoichneum's previous post in which he said:

"Why should that level of bollocks post be given the time of day"

Is that appropriate? Is that civil? Why should I maintain civility with someone who is going to treat me that way?

iNow you're turning into the kind of Mod I can't stand - selectively blind

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:42 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Rory wrote:
iNow you're turning into the kind of Mod I can't stand - selectively blind

It would be much easier for me to appear fair here if you'd actually support your assertions when explicitly and repeatedly asked to do so.

Also, context matters. Quite a bit, and you know this.

Let's recall that his comment was in direct response to this comment from you: "No, I'm not going to post any economic data. (snip) If you think that the underlying emotional reason for why our country is leaving the EU, is not important, then jack in the thread if you want."

Can we PLEASE just try to be civil and support our arguments with evidence and logic?

It's clear that you're passionate about this issue, but it's hard for others to empathize with why when you simply lash out at them personally for asking questions or raising counter arguments.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:31 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
how about if everyone started by leaving out flame bait words - there just isn't any need for it + it leads to totally unnecessary bad feeling

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:05 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
From former US Federal Reserve Chairman (what I believe Brits call the Chancellor of the Exchequer) Ben Bernanke:

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bern ... /28-brexit
Quote:
Even more obvious now than before the vote is that the biggest losers, economically speaking, will be the British themselves. The vote ushers in what will be several years of tremendous uncertainty—about the rules that will govern the U.K.’s trade with its continental neighbors, about the fates of foreign workers in Britain and British workers abroad, and about the country’s political direction, including perhaps where its borders will ultimately lie. Such fundamental uncertainty will depress business formation, capital investment, and hiring; indeed, it had begun to do so even before the vote. The U.K. economic slowdown to come will be exacerbated by falling asset values (houses, commercial real estate, stocks) and damaged confidence on the part of households and businesses. Ironically, the sharp decline in the value of the pound may be a bit of a buffer here as, all else equal, it will make British exports more competitive.

In the longer run, the uncertainty will dissipate, but the economic costs to the U.K. still will exceed the benefits. Financial services and other globally oriented industries, which depend on unfettered access to European markets and exchanges, will come under pressure. At the same time, the purported gains from freeing the U.K. from the heavy regulatory hand of Brussels will be limited, because Britain will likely have to accept most of those rules (without ability to influence them) as part of restructured trade agreements. Immigration is unpopular in the U.K., and slowing it was a motivation for some “leave” voters, but a more slowly growing labor force likely would also reduce overall economic growth.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:19 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Read this interesting article today about the link between implementation of austerity measures and the rise of right-wing extremism:

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... acism.html
Quote:
And let’s be clear. Stagnation is just what millions of people have suffered. The Resolution Foundation reports that over half of working age households have seen flat or falling living standards since 2002. This created a discontent with the establishment that manifested itself in support for Brexit. As Torsten Bell points out, there's a strong correlation between wage levels and the tendency to support Brexit, which suggests that if the economy had done better and wages (especially those of the worse off) were higher, there'd be less support for Brexit. Basic behavioural economics – prospect theory – tells us that people who feel they’ve lost will be tempted to take reckless gambles.

Of course, austerity isn’t the sole cause of low incomes: even a decent government would have struggled against the post-crisis stagnation in productivity and growth. But austerity undoubtedly exacerbated the problem.

And of course, support for Brexit, in itself, is not right-wing extremism. But as Aditya Chakrabortty says, the campaign helped to generate racism. Discontent with stagnant real wages and poor public services – both the result of austerity – led to a demand for Brexit which itself fuelled a surge in racism. The cost of austerity isn’t just lost GDP. It’s is increased intolerance too. There’s a direct link from Osborne’s criminal economic mismanagement to hate crimes.


It's a brief read and worth the extra 2-3 minutes to finish. The quote that really stands out to me is this: "people who feel they’ve lost will be tempted to take reckless gambles."


And here's another that looks to the broader problems in the EU, specifically use of a single centralized currency without the parallel use of a single centralized decision making authority for fiscal measures: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12052494/b ... o-disaster

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:43 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Of course, those who've lost out will take reckless gambles. That's what I've been trying to tell you firsthand. But you won't believe anything unless it's either drawn on axes or on the cover of a news article.

When you have nothing left lose it makes sense to gamble.

However, I would question whether Brexit has actually generated racism - I think it is more likely that nascent racist attitudes harboured silently in the population became voiced as racists decided that the Leave decision was somehow vindication of their intolerance.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:47 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Paul Nurse crying for the EU scientists today. My heart bleeds.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:34 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
Rory wrote:
However, I would question whether Brexit has actually generated racism - I think it is more likely that nascent racist attitudes harboured silently in the population became voiced as racists decided that the Leave decision was somehow vindication of their intolerance.


Exactly, its kind of like I doubt Trump has created any new racists, just brought the ones that existed out of their trailer parks.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:07 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
They're like the dog that caught the car. You can't script this. First Boris declares he won't run for PM, now Nigel resigns as UKIP leader.

http://www.businessinsider.com/farage-r ... der-2016-7
Quote:
Nigel Farage has announced his resignation as leader of the UK Independence Party.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:56 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
Thought this was an interesting little nugget:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... -identity/
Quote:
Regardless of what voters or pundits might be saying, we find that Leave votes were systematically higher in regions more affected by the surge in Chinese imports over the last three decades. And we find no evidence that the presence or influx of immigrants correlates with a region’s support for Brexit.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
shlunka
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:06 pm

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:55 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Virginia, US

Offline
Falconer360 wrote:
Rory wrote:
However, I would question whether Brexit has actually generated racism - I think it is more likely that nascent racist attitudes harboured silently in the population became voiced as racists decided that the Leave decision was somehow vindication of their intolerance.


Exactly, its kind of like I doubt Trump has created any new racists, just brought the ones that existed out of their trailer parks.

They've been hibernating in caves made out of used PBR cans since Obama's re-election. Mistaking the bright orange and yellow Trump for the bright summer solstice, they crawled out to scavenge last October and have since been feeding on atmospheric levels of hate in a process known as phobiasynthesis.

_________________
John Hancock was here.


Top
M_Gabriela
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:25 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 2:25 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bs As, Argentina

Offline
Falconer360 wrote:
Rory wrote:
However, I would question whether Brexit has actually generated racism - I think it is more likely that nascent racist attitudes harboured silently in the population became voiced as racists decided that the Leave decision was somehow vindication of their intolerance.


Exactly, its kind of like I doubt Trump has created any new racists, just brought the ones that existed out of their trailer parks.


And now they think they have permission to be openely racist..


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:24 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
M_Gabriela wrote:
Falconer360 wrote:
Rory wrote:
However, I would question whether Brexit has actually generated racism - I think it is more likely that nascent racist attitudes harboured silently in the population became voiced as racists decided that the Leave decision was somehow vindication of their intolerance.


Exactly, its kind of like I doubt Trump has created any new racists, just brought the ones that existed out of their trailer parks.


And now they think they have permission to be openely racist..

The only advantage is this, is it's become a lot easier to find out which of your friends/family/acquaintances are actually racist f*ckwads.

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:30 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline


Fear is a weapon of mass des-truc-tion

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:29 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
How UK and Europe might relate after breakup

Image

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... er-breakup

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:06 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Well, Article 50 may never be triggered - there is no legal requirement.

Especially so if there is a snap election.

Now I'm half hoping we won't leave :oops:

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:49 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
what makes you say that ? it's clear that Theresa May won't call one, and that she will go ahead with Brexit

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:34 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Well the opposition parties have called for one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/opposition-parties-call-for-early-general-election-following-theresa-may-coronation-a7130896.html

And basically the UK will now be governed by a PM nobody voted for and by a party for whom 75% of the electorate did not vote.

But I think you're right, marnix, May probably won't call a general election (unless forced to) and probably will proceed with Brexit. She looks just too delighted with her new title for me to believe otherwise.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/triggering-article-50-could-be-illegal-despite-eu-referendum-result

Although - the New Statesman article, above, cites a legal requirement for parliamentary majority vote on Brexit, and Leave: Remain is 140:650 among MPs.

Safe to say the political upheavals have been many and unexpected since 23rd June. Who can say we're not in for one or two more surprises yet?

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:29 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Everybody calm the frick down - I'm still running this joint

Image

Sincerely,

Larry
Chief Mouser
10 Downing Street

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:32 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
It's the "now being run by a PM nobody voted for" part that I suspect has even the most strident of Leave voters questioning their (ill-advised?) decision right now.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:40 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: Somewhere in the Great State of Washington

Offline
iNow wrote:
It's the "now being run by a PM nobody voted for" part that I suspect has even the most strident of Leave voters questioning their (ill-advised?) decision right now.

It would be like if the Speaker of the House became President...

_________________
"For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson
"It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down" - Yagyu Munenori


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:19 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Theresa May just gave an amazing speech on social justice, in a way that it feels like she gets it. Remains to be seen if she will uphold that position, or if she will even be able to make a difference.

At the moment, I quite like her.

What are your opinions of her?

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:22 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5700
Location: Iowa

Offline
I know little more than her name and how she suddenly arrived in this new position at this point. TBD

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:26 pm
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
Rory wrote:
Theresa May just gave an amazing speech on social justice, in a way that it feels like she gets it. Remains to be seen if she will uphold that position, or if she will even be able to make a difference.

At the moment, I quite like her.

What are your opinions of her?


not sure - suppose we may as well give her the benefit of the doubt until we see what type of PM she turns out to be
some of her appointments (e.g. Boris Johnson foreign affairs, David Davies Brexit) look daring but not sure what message it sends
also clear that George Osborne was too closely associated with both David Cameron and austerity to survive the changing of the guard

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:44 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Perhaps the appointmemt of Johnson serves to vindicate him after the betrayal by Gove?

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:38 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
just wonder about the speed with which he withdrew : was a backroom deal done ?

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:35 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Possibly... the closest I found to an explanation in press releases was that Boris was aware of Gove attempting to convert his support base.

I certainly don't agree with all of Johnson's ideas but I kind of like him. I reckon his eccentric bravado is a cover he adopted at Eton, where his studies were funded by a scholarship, so as not to appear a threat to his fee-paying peers.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:28 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4850
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
anyone who can be stuck on a zip wire and instead of looking the fool (which most politicians would look like) making it into a publicity stunt must have something going for him

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does anybody actually care about Europe?  |  Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:16 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
I hadn't seen that until you mentioned it.

He's so cute, I'd like to meet him in person.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy