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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 6:19 pm
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I always say space instead of space time. Something I've always done, easier to type. Why isn't space time one word? Is space/time acceptable?

I might be asking a lot in this thread and I've probably used some bad terminology, added some misunderstandings and misconceptions, but I'm no expert. I understand in the presence of mass that space is bent, twisted, stretched, etc. I imagine once the mass has moved through a particular region then that space that suffered the distortion would also return.

Anyways, other than that, it appears as if space is stationary. Maybe it does move and perhaps undetectable, don't know and it's what I'm asking. Of course space is expanding also, galaxies are flying apart from one another. Here's where I get confused: If I have two stationary objects in space (no forces acting upon them) and the distance between them is increased then would the two objects be moving and if so relative to what?

Here's another thing, if space can be increased then it should also be able to be decreased, no? I mean starting with a certain amount of space and then taking some away. But if space is for all intents stationary then how do you subtract from or add to, by putting the objects in motion?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 7:05 pm
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I'm not even going to pretend that I understand how space really expands, or is capable of shrinking again if the conditions are right
I never found the balloon analogy very helpful to get a feel for how space itself (as opposed to the objects inside it) changes

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GiantEvil
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 7:42 pm
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I don't think this board possesses a member who is capable of saying what space is according to how it is modeled. Seems like a "Markus" question to me.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 9:59 pm
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How does one define movement and distance without the concept of spacetime already in place? They can't.

Space is generally just a synonym for the universe (or, the upper atmosphere above Earth where ISS orbits, but that's not relevant here). It doesn't move because there's nothing against which it's relative motion can be measured or defined. The universe (or space or spacetime, whatever we choose to call it in this sentence) includes everything.

Even with the concepts of expansion and contraction when we discuss curvature due to large masses like stars, none of that really relates to spacetime. When discussing those things, you're not referring to spacetime itself, but instead to the relationships between items within some coordinate system. Objects within a specific region may get farther away or closer together relative to somewhere else, but that's all measured against the backdrop of a broader space which doesn't itself move. Spacetime may dimple and bend and stretch, etc., but that's still relative to some other region.

You're describing a coordinate system when you make those comments, not spacetime which is just a useful descriptor to help our simple hairless ape brains try to visualize it.

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 2:44 am
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If objects didn't stretch space and there was nothing to give them a nudge, then would they move at all?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:03 am
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Relative to what?

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:16 am
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iNow wrote:
Relative to what?


Why does it matter 'to what'?

I guess what I'm asking is this: does the curvature of space cause an otherwise stationary object to move or does only an object set in motion react to curved space?

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Last edited by Zinjanthropos on Tue May 03, 2016 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:24 am
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
iNow wrote:
Relative to what?


Why does it matter 'to what'?

Answer this question for me: What's the difference between a duck?

Understand?

Zinjanthropos wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is this: does the curvature of space time cause an otherwise stationary object to move...

Here's what you keep missing. Stationary relative to what? Move reactive to what?

You're sitting there now in front of your screen. Are you still? Well yes... Relative to your chair and relative to your room.

However, you're simultaneously on a planet moving hundreds of miles per hour relative to the sun, which means you're also moving hundreds of miles per hour relative to the sun.

Further, you're in a solar system moving thousands of miles per hour relative to the galactic center. You're in a galaxy moving millions of miles per hour relative to the center of our supercluster... But despite all of this you would claim to me that you're still. Well, you of course are, but only in one particular reference frame. In others, you're not.

Which is correct? Both are.

Your question (whether intentionally or not) implies an absolute frame of reference. There's quite simply no such thing, no matter how much our feeble human minds cling to the desire for one.

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:01 am
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Not trying to be a smart ass, just so you know where I'm coming from. I'm technically dumb as shit. Not trying to usurp your knowledge or that of every scientist on Earth. Because I'm more clueless than a bag of hammers, my questions may not contain the proper technical dialogue usually associated with the subject I'm enquiring about.

I understand everything is in motion. Objects in motion follow the curvature of space or move in a straight line. I was only asking about an object that isn't in motion. Obviously if it isn't moving then it's not following along curved space, flat space, any space. It's not doing anything.

Anyway I'm zonked, heading to bed to think about what I asked, catch a few winks, and hopefully I can improve the question. If not then I'll ask to have it withdrawn.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:08 am
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
I was only asking about an object that isn't in motion.

There's no such thing

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 6:23 am
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indeed: every object in the universe is in motion in relation to all other objects
in fact, the concepts of speed and motion are meaningless unless it's as compared against at least one other object

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:52 pm
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Isn't a distortion a kind of movement?

Imagine the analogy with a blliard resting in the middle of a trampoline which creates the conditions for marbles to move towards the billiard ball. The fabric of the trampoline during its distortion moves relative to everything else in the Universe. No?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:56 pm
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It does, but what is spacetime itself relative to? Nothing. The entities and objects within that spacetime have relationships to each other, but that's it. The analogy of the trampoline fabric helps with visualization, but is not a true picture. Don't confuse the map with the territory. :)

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 5:10 pm

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iNow wrote:
It does, but what is spacetime itself relative to? Nothing. The entities and objects within that spacetime have relationships to each other, but that's it. The analogy of the trampoline fabric helps with visualization, but is not a true picture. Don't confuse the map with the territory. :)

Is there a difference between "space" (of course not as in "outer space") and spacetime?

Does mass/energy etc curve "space " or curve "spacetime" ? Both ?

I was listening to an Al- Khalili documentary where he introduced the ideas of intrinsic curvature and said that ,although Gauss and Riemann introduced the idea of intrinsic curvature it was Einstein that took their idea and actually applied them to the physical world. Do you have any explanation for exactly how he did that.?

Was it just the maths or did he have a physical insight regarding how mass /energy and space perform their mutual dance ("mass curves space and space tells mass how to move" in so many words, I think) ?


Last edited by geordief on Tue May 03, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 5:14 pm

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Rory wrote:
Isn't a distortion a kind of movement?

Imagine the analogy with a blliard resting in the middle of a trampoline which creates the conditions for marbles to move towards the billiard ball. The fabric of the trampoline during its distortion moves relative to everything else in the Universe. No?


That is also what I was wondering. If space is distorted isn't that (internal) movement?

So is space itself not stretched ?Is it just our co-ordinate system that is stretched and distances between "events" that change?


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 5:54 pm
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geordief wrote:
Is there a difference between "space" (of course not as in "outer space") and spacetime?

No

geordief wrote:
Does mass/energy etc curve "space " or curve "spacetime" ? Both ?

See above

geordief wrote:
I was listening to an Al- Khalili documentary where he introduced the ideas of intrinsic curvature and said that ,although Gauss and Riemann introduced the idea of intrinsic curvature it was Einstein that took their idea and actually applied them to the physical world. Do you have any explanation for exactly how he did that.?

We're rapidly getting beyond my depth, but I believe you're referring to the geometry of the universe and whether it's open or closed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

geordief wrote:
Was it just the maths or did he have a physical insight regarding how mass /energy and space perform their mutual dance ("mass curves space and space tells mass how to move" in so many words, I think) ?

Am not personally familiar with the work or ideas of Al-Khalili, but much of the relationship between mass and spacetime was described by Higgs and his peers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_bos ... al_summary

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 5:55 pm
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For the record, I'm just an interested spectator and am not well versed in this space. Have hardly picked up a book on the subject in over a decade, really.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 6:54 pm

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iNow wrote:
Am not personally familiar with the work or ideas of Al-Khalili, but much of the relationship between mass and spacetime was described by Higgs and his peers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_bos ... al_summary


I only know him as a presenter of science documentaries on the BBC. Am just familiar with the terminology in the link you have provided .I really appreciate none of the implications of the discovery of the Higgs Boson or the theories that lay behind it.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 7:38 pm
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The basics as I understand them are that all mass comes from particles interacting with a constant background field in combination with the energy inherent in how the constituent parts of those particles are bound together.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:50 pm

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iNow wrote:
The basics as I understand them are that all mass comes from particles interacting with a constant background field in combination with the energy inherent in how the constituent parts of those particles are bound together.

If I was in charge we would have a simpler universe :)


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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:26 pm

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iNow wrote:
geordief wrote:
Is there a difference between "space" (of course not as in "outer space") and spacetime?

No

geordief wrote:
Does mass/energy etc curve "space " or curve "spacetime" ? Both ?

See above


Ok ,I will pull "rank" on you. This quote (which I have googled) from Scientific American suggests a difference.

"Incidentally, when cosmologists talk about the expansion of the universe, they mean that space has been expanding, not spacetime."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/deg ... at-part-i/

Would you agree? If you do agree ,how would you put that difference into words?


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:36 pm
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Hmm... Well I guess one doesn't include time, but that is hard for me to justify since any coordinate in a 3D system also tends to be isolated to a point in time. Telling me where does nothing if that where doesn't have a when, ya know?

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:57 pm

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iNow wrote:
Hmm... Well I guess one doesn't include time, but that is hard for me to justify since any coordinate in a 3D system also tends to be isolated to a point in time. Telling me where does nothing if that where doesn't have a when, ya know?

In the same article it says:

"Incidentally, when cosmologists talk about the expansion of the universe, they mean that space has been expanding, not spacetime."

Is space-time the map and space the "mapped" ?

When I think of the time dimension ,I actually think of it something like an approximation to a" dimension . The 4th dimension in spacetime is ,after all a length -(eg ct or the distance traveled by the moving part of any timing mechanism )

We can agree that we need "time" for this length to "unfurl" but I am not sure that I would describe that "time" as a dimension - It would be the deadpan definition "time is something we measure" that I would go along with.

PS :I don't know if the author in this article is "right". Perhaps you can only know that when you have done the study that allow you to make correct predictions. I don't know if he is not "talking down" to lay people like myself that he knows cannot understand the full picture -but do need to be kept informed in the round.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 10:27 pm
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I find the analogies confusing. If space-time cannot validly be compared to a physical model, then why bother with the physical model?

I have a hard time imagining things that aren't tangibly physical - so to say "oh it's just like that everyday physical object" leads me to conflate the two and breed misconceptions.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 10:36 pm

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Rory wrote:
I find the analogies confusing. If space-time cannot validly be compared to a physical model, then why bother with the physical model?

I have a hard time imagining things that aren't tangibly physical - so to say "oh it's just like that everyday physical object" leads me to conflate the two and breed misconceptions.

What do you mean by a "physical model" ? (sorry if I am being obtuse or thick)You are not you using "physical model" and "physical object" interchangeably ,are you?


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 2:13 am
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I give it another go. I stand to be corrected if I screw up.

What I was trying to get to last night was to establish whether gravity is a force. Objects in motion do follow a geodesic which is affected by the presence of other objects with mass. Since everything is in motion then all objects will follow a path, even though the line it takes may be acted upon by another mass object's proximity.

What I was trying to say is that if there was no motion of objects, would a motionless object with mass simply contort the space around it and attract nothing, which leads me to ask if gravity actually exists as a force? Is there really an attractive force between objects or is it just the less massive falling towards the more massive, following their prescribe geodesic?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 2:46 am
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Since your question relies on an unrealistic scenario, it can't be answered. Objects are always in motion relative to something else.

It's only in a local frame of reference that objects can ever be considered not in motion, but that situation is moot since you're asking about space itself.

For perspective, you could just as well be asking what two plus yellow equals.

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:07 am
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When in the distant future all galaxies have moved away from ours to the point where they can't be detected, assuming a homegrown intelligence evolves to observe the Milky Way, that observer could say everything is moving within the galaxy but how would he know the entire Milky Way is actually moving through space?

What about the theoretical BB singularity? Do you know if it moved or not?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:08 am
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I'm not trying to be difficult here. I promise, but this point is key: Moved relative to what?

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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:26 am
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iNow wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult here. I promise, but this point is key: Moved relative to what?


Neither am I.I get what you're saying.

A futuristic isolated Milky Way, it's moving through space relative to other galaxies but my future observer wouldn't have the luxury of knowing this. I'll go out on a limb and say it is possible to be so isolated in space that you don't even know you're moving. They say space has geometry, objects have their coordinates within it, but it means nothing if all the observer can see is himself. Our galaxy won't suddenly stop hurtling through space when the night sky's lights go out and we appear alone. It's still moving relative to the other galaxies but you wouldn't know that. It still has coordinates but you wouldn't know it. You'd be wrong to say it is stationary.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:37 am

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Zinjanthropos wrote:
iNow wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult here. I promise, but this point is key: Moved relative to what?


Neither am I.I get what you're saying.

A futuristic isolated Milky Way, it's moving through space relative to other galaxies but my future observer wouldn't have the luxury of knowing this. I'll go out on a limb and say it is possible to be so isolated in space that you don't even know you're moving. They say space has geometry, objects have their coordinates within it, but it means nothing if all the observer can see is himself. Our galaxy won't suddenly stop hurtling through space when the night sky's lights go out and we appear alone. It's still moving relative to the other galaxies but you wouldn't know that. It still has coordinates but you wouldn't know it. You'd be wrong to say it is stationary.


That scenario is one I think I have come across. Since space is expanding the universe is divided into the "observable" universe -the region where in theory a signal can reach an observer and the unobservable universe from where a signal cannot reach the observer because the ongoing expansion is greater than the speed of any signal (light).

Since we cannot know anything about this unobservable universe (can make no measurements) we can only make indirect descriptions based on that part of the universe that we can actually "see".

Regarding "motion" ,I believe it is the natural order of things and "being stationary" is an "artificial" situation that is inherently unstable. We can position 2 systems to be momentarily stationary vis a vis each other but internal dynamics will break down this arrangement immediately.


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PhDemon
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:39 am

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Nothing can be stationary with respect to all observers. It is an impossible state, everything is in motion in some frame of reference or other as iNow has been trying to explain.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:49 am

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PhDemon wrote:
Nothing can be stationary with respect to all observers. It is an impossible state, everything is in motion in some frame of reference or other as iNow has been trying to explain.

True .I was attempting to set up the nearest thing/scenario to a "stationary " situation (2 systems and one observer) to show how immediately unstable that was . A bit like a devil's advocate.


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:52 pm
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Golfing yesterday. Was lining up a 30 footer when I realized what I was about to try and do. I have a ball, the contoured green, and the inevitable 4" diameter gravity well into which I hope the ball eventually free falls. I wondered if I was gazing at a microcosm* of the universe, albeit with missing or additional components.

If I apply the right amount of force to the ball to get it in motion with the proper direction, the ball will follow a geodesic through curved space (the green) and the presence of objects with mass simulated by the green's contours will influence that path until it is captured by the event horizon of very large mass exemplified by the hole. Does that sound even remotely correct?

Am I correct in saying that mass affects the geodesic (path) of, and has no physical attraction to, an approaching mass?

*I understand the ball, green, hole were already in motion as all objects are in the universe.

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SpeedFreek
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:41 pm
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
A futuristic isolated Milky Way, it's moving through space relative to other galaxies but my future observer wouldn't have the luxury of knowing this. I'll go out on a limb and say it is possible to be so isolated in space that you don't even know you're moving. They say space has geometry, objects have their coordinates within it, but it means nothing if all the observer can see is himself. Our galaxy won't suddenly stop hurtling through space when the night sky's lights go out and we appear alone. It's still moving relative to the other galaxies but you wouldn't know that. It still has coordinates but you wouldn't know it. You'd be wrong to say it is stationary.


Or would you... ?

http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0221

"The Return of a Static Universe and the End of Cosmology - Lawrence M. Krauss, Robert J. Scherrer

We demonstrate that as we extrapolate the current ΛCDM universe forward in time, all evidence of the Hubble expansion will disappear, so that observers in our "island universe" will be fundamentally incapable of determining the true nature of the universe, including the existence of the highly dominant vacuum energy, the existence of the CMB, and the primordial origin of light elements. With these pillars of the modern Big Bang gone, this epoch will mark the end of cosmology and the return of a static universe. In this sense, the coordinate system appropriate for future observers will perhaps fittingly resemble the static coordinate system in which the de Sitter universe was first presented."


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:17 pm
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Speedfreek:Krauss is a favorite of mine. He's a venerable quote machine. Your's reminded me of the following pearl of Krauss wisdom:

“In 5 billion years, the expansion of the universe will have progressed to the point where all other galaxies will have receded beyond detection. Indeed, they will be receding faster than the speed of light, so detection will be impossible. Future civilizations will discover science and all its laws, and never know about other galaxies or the cosmic background radiation. They will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion about the universe......We live in a special time, the only time, where we can observationally verify that we live in a special time.”

Krauss says future generation will get it wrong and I think he means the conclusion reached would be static (not moving through space) universe (galaxy). I can't see how the future conclusion is correct despite what the evidence of that time would present. Perhaps that is why I like my signature so much. I'm a born skeptic who proceeds with caution at all times :D

I hope something hasn't preceded our observations, something that we will never discover. How would we know?

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:18 pm
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SpeedFreek wrote:
Or would you... ?

http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0221

"The Return of a Static Universe and the End of Cosmology"

Nice! Next thing you know, we'll be talking about creating universes from nothing.

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"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 2:50 am
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Zinjanthropos wrote:
Speedfreek:Krauss is a favorite of mine. He's a veritable quote machine. Your's reminded me of the following pearl of Krauss wisdom:

“In 5 billion years, the expansion of the universe will have progressed to the point where all other galaxies will have receded beyond detection. Indeed, they will be receding faster than the speed of light, so detection will be impossible. Future civilizations will discover science and all its laws, and never know about other galaxies or the cosmic background radiation. They will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion about the universe......We live in a special time, the only time, where we can observationally verify that we live in a special time.”

Krauss says future generation will get it wrong and I think he means the conclusion reached would be static (not moving through space) universe (galaxy). I can't see how the future conclusion is correct despite what the evidence of that time would present. Perhaps that is why I like my signature so much. I'm a born skeptic who proceeds with caution at all times :D

I hope something hasn't preceded our observations, something that we will never discover. How would we know?

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:26 am
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Something happened with that last post. Looks like an error. Appears you quoted yourself, but no further comments were saved.

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geordief
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:08 am

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If "motion" is the new "standing still" ** , can we say that acceleration (or change in motion") is the new** "motion" ?

Maybe that is just something that was already taken for granted and I am just learning to see it that way and I am just stating the obvious.

I believe it is also possible for acceleration not to be constant but I don't think that it is an important observation (think Markus may have told me that) .


** "new" in the sense that ,before relativity I think ,we used to think that "motion" was some kind of a departure from "being stationary".


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:18 am
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Inow said:
Quote:
Something happened with that last post. Looks like an error. Appears you quoted yourself, but no further comments were saved.


This any better. For some reason I have to hit submit twice everytime. I'm always worried that it will be a double post.

My post said:

Speedfreek:Krauss is a favorite of mine. He's a veritable quote machine. Your's reminded me of the following pearl of Krauss wisdom:

Quote:
“In 5 billion years, the expansion of the universe will have progressed to the point where all other galaxies will have receded beyond detection. Indeed, they will be receding faster than the speed of light, so detection will be impossible. Future civilizations will discover science and all its laws, and never know about other galaxies or the cosmic background radiation. They will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion about the universe......We live in a special time, the only time, where we can observationally verify that we live in a special time.”



Krauss says future generation will get it wrong and I think he means the conclusion reached would be static (not moving through space) universe (galaxy). I can't see how the future conclusion is correct despite what the evidence of that time would present. Perhaps that is why I like my signature so much. I'm a born skeptic who proceeds with caution at all times

I hope something hasn't preceded our observations, something that we will never discover. How would we know?

_________________
"Science is much better than religion because our faith is shakeable. There can be something I believe with all my heart to be absolutely true, and the minute there's evidence that it isn't true, I throw it out like yesterday's garbage"-Krauss


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Zinjanthropos
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 3:10 pm
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How much of an affect does the countless number of neutrinos in the universe have on the geometry of space? If neutrinos have a mass then would their total mass be enough to curve space as we know it?

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astromark2014
Post  Post subject: Re: Does Space Move?  |  Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 10:12 am
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Do feel free to correct anything said by me..I am not a qualified astrophysics knob.. No ph D. Just a keen astronomer and with a interest in all sciences..
I am aware that some 'new' light photons have some mass, ( ever so little ) yet the accumulated effect could be hiding the answer sought here..
I think a fine understanding of neutrino's is being attained. I do not know of hidden mass.. and a neutrino link. I may need more information than I have yet found.
Does space move ? Not if you judge space as nothing., but that in that void of nothing there is much of everything and none of it is motionless. ~ Mark.

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