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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:22 pm

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I am tutoring a 17 year old young kid (Not young man, he has a long way to go to that point.)
He is in a secondary high school with poor grades, low motivation, low attention span and terrible English skills. Spelling that would make a forth grader blush.
One thing his teachers note most often is that his mouth moves more than his pencil.
This is not always a bad thing, since it means he is often engaging in classroom discussions. But when it comes to writing an essay... total 180.
I have been giving him remedial education outside of school in science, English and history.
When it comes to science, he comes alive. He wants to crack the Universe open and peer inside. He wants to know things, for a change. He becomes animated, asks questions and speculates.
If he could just get his (stuff) together, he has the makings of a scientist- with a lot of development, anyway.
But his lack of skill with syntax, diction, grammar and worst of all, spelling, hold him back. I suspect his pride comes into play. He hates for others to see his failings. So, rather than write a poor essay, he writes no essay.
I have explored a LOT of options with him but one thing that I have avoided is this: Online Forums. They allow for discussion but he has to write out his replies, instead of speaking them. It forces him to confront and correct language errors. And does so with an environment he MAY find engaging.
So, I figure I should give it a shot... except the question becomes where to do it. Ideally, the forum must be active but not too active. At least at first. Which leaves this.

Well.

I don't like any of you and none of you like me.
The question is, can you lot put up with me long enough that I can try to reach this kid?


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:21 pm
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I'm a lot more laid back here compared to the .com site. So I will say that I will display the level of patience needed to help you get through this kid.

Side note: I think I was in one of my inactive periods when you were around before. So I have no reason to have any animosity for you.

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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:39 pm

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Falconer360 wrote:
Side note: I think I was in one of my inactive periods when you were around before. So I have no reason to have any animosity for you.

It is mostly TSF.com Moderators, (who are also members here) where the tension is. As long as they don't start anything with me, I don't see any problems. But there are a couple I don't trust to not try to start something so I figured I would feel it out, first.
Wouldn't work out well to get the kid registered, get it going and then the whole thing gets distracted by old history...


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:43 am
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Neverfly wrote:
I don't like any of you and none of you like me.
The question is, can you lot put up with me long enough that I can try to reach this kid?

Of course. Like Falconer, I hold no ill will toward you. I frankly don't even remember you.

On another note... and in the spirit of science... why not just put it to the test? A bit of real life empiricism; an experiment, as it were.

After all, people only get better at writing through practice. If you can find a safe way for a person with great potential to practice and improve a skill that's currently in need of improvement, then by all means charge full speed ahead.

Problem is, it's quiet here. You may also need to introduce the individual into more than one community before finding one that fits and feels right for them.

Neverfly wrote:
Spelling that would make a forth grader blush.

...fourth...

Skitt's Law strikes again! ;)

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"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:49 am

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I remember you iNow. I used to live in Austin...
Never had any quarrels with you.
You make a good point: Only way to find out is to find out.
I will have him join shortly- you will see his I.P. is my I.P. but uhhh... I'm sure the posts will be very different.
Yes, it is a quiet board. Other options like JREF or BAUT are so busy that he would be overwhelmed. The other two are not an option.
The way I have it figured, he and I may have to try to liven it.
I will make him make an into thread.


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:03 am

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iNow wrote:
Skitt's Law strikes again! ;)

You sure are abrasive.
I've had enough of you, already.
We're done here.


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:33 am
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Yep. Remember you now.

Humor is a funny thing.

Try not to go out of your way to offend and try not to go out of your way to feel offended. ~Marnix

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:01 pm
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Neverfly, I'm pretty sure iNow was not intending to hurt you... he was pointing out the irony of your typo. So what's the point in being insecure about making mistakes? I do stupid things all the time - if I didn't laugh at myself I'd probably go the way of Raymond:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=12LLJFSBnS4[/youtube]

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If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:28 pm
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Neverfly has previous history

I would have perfectly been perfectly OK with Trilobite joining the forum of his own volition, but because your parent told you to do so ? and then aggravate insult by adding injury of setting the terms of how his son should participate ? puh-lease !

imo it contravenes the very philosophy of what a forum is supposed to be for

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"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:44 am

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marnixR wrote:
Neverfly has previous history
I would have perfectly been perfectly OK with Trilobite joining the forum of his own volition, but because your parent told you to do so ? and then aggravate insult by adding injury of setting the terms of how his son should participate ? puh-lease !

imo it contravenes the very philosophy of what a forum is supposed to be for

Yes, I told him to do so. I discussed this with him, his mother and his teachers and we all agreed it was a good idea. He was enthusiastic and still is- now having joined a different forum and has been participating. His I.D. is "Owl" SpacetimeandtheUniverse forum- feel free to see for yourself.
You say I have a history- well, I am sure you can relate your version of that history. But one thing is more clear: You have a bias.
There is no insult, nor injury to Parenting A Child. Your biased assumptions and conclusions are absurd. Your intent is merely to find any reason to attack my character out of your own dislike of me.
A dislike that simply stems from my confrontation a .com moderators unethical use of sock puppets on the .com site to deceive and manipulate members. I had a Valid Reason for turning against you.
Yes, I set the terms- can you show any way that they are Unreasonable? Are they Oppressive?
-He was to Participate daily.
-He was to create an ID and an Avatar that are courteous and respectful.
-He was to read the Forum Rules and explain them to me to show that he understands them and follow them.
-He was to not PM unless it was a Mod, Admin, Myself or his mom, Seagypsy.

Where is the insult or injury? It was ensuring his safety and integrity, his assignment (You know, those things regularly assigned by educational facilities all over the world) and his focus on participation.
You are doing everything you can to spin that into some crime. Your an iNow's efforts to somehow make that look like a crime fall down by a simple examination of the instructive post I gave to "trilobite."
Who, by the way, was as angry and dismayed at iNows post as I was. I had not even seen it. He came running to my room and was angrily spilling his guts. I said, "He said WHAT?!", went and looked and had my mind blown at iNows attitude and words.
You simply make too many assumptions and have no idea what you are talking about.
It demonstrates far, far more about you, just as iNow has demonstrated himself, much better than me - or any claims you try to make about me to convince others I am some monstrous person due to your bias.

My son and I have joined a different forum. We will make use of that one, to the best of our ability, to again, try to train, instruct and guide him, no matter how much you think it is insulting and injurious and you may feel free to bash me from this point forward to your hearts content.
All of my posts stand as a record for anyone to go and view.
Enjoy.


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:54 am

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MarnixR,
You said I have a history.
Let's examine it.
When I was a member of the .com site, I had one of the highest like to post ratios on the board.
Anyone can go check. Science is to investigate claims and verify.
My science was sound.
My arguments were generally pretty solid.
My math was weak... I admit that. It still is.
I was passionate, yes, but it invited readership.
And far more often than not, I got along with most everyone well. Even the ATM'ers, because I firmly believe that ATM discussions should be encouraged to test the mainstream ideas for accuracy. That IS the scientific method and it is a good, solid method. Not always, though. We all scrap on occasion.
At a time in this history, Moderator John Galt admitted he had been using sock puppets deceitfully to toy with people on the forum. He expressed that he was sorry and he did not want to discuss it any further but to just leave it at that.
Too. Bad.
Because he had violated the trust and ethics of the board.
His claim of sorrow would not hold in law; if a person committed some sort of crime, he could not say, "Sorry, I regret that. Let's just not talk about it and leave it at that."
And it had gone on for quite a long time, maybe even years- where is the Sorrow There?

Holding the person accountable, just as moderators routinely do to us members is just as important to mods as it is to members. I learned then that Mods were not accountable.
This started the tension, true and simple.
Adelady even PM'ed me and while I will not quote without permission, she asked a question about whether being "right" was really that important to me; couldn't I just let it go?
My answer was and is "YES." There is little that is more important to me than that.
The tension continued to where any time there was debate, heated or otherwise, any action on my part, any interaction...
I could do nothing right.
I was always the one at fault.
I was always guilty.
During all this, my posts continued to climb in like to post ratio. The evidence remains in the forum archives, anyone can see for themselves.

Eventually, something had to give.
What it boiled down to, simply enough...
Moderators hold that position for too long. At first, they want to do what is right, too. Mods are not bad people. I do not hate any of you. I'm angry at some of the fallacies, but that is perfectly normal.
But they are HUMAN and that includes the same biases and faults that are human nature. Nature that requires we use the scientific method to overcome them.
Mods become complacent in justifying themselves. They become complacent with their authority to where they can do no wrong.
Once in that position of power, as is human nature, they are very hesitant to give it up. Sound like any other Power Figures in history and what happens when they held it for too long?
I leave it to the current readers: Have you ever felt like a moderator was overreacting, but because of their position, you felt they might be right simply because they are the authority?
Have you ever felt like you wanted to speak up, but you did not because you feared Moderator action?
Have you even ever felt like you were the one at fault because your inability to measure up to their standards was to blame... that you caused the moderator to react to you?
Just a point: These are common discussion themes at Battered Womens Shelters.
You see, quite often, the abuser does not realize that he has become and abuser and the abused is afraid or ashamed and blames themselves for being abused.
My common history, my thread is that I WILL speak out.
I will speak out even when threatened. I Will question the authority, correctness and actions or attitudes of Moderators.
And. They. Do. Not. Like. That. One. Bit.
This is MY version, MY perception of that history. Is it biased?
Most likely. I have no illusions about my fallibility.
But I am quite certain it is not heavily biased. I am quite certain that I am close to the mark.
Because, under observation, I got along fine with the mods until I questioned the unethical actions. Until I questioned their authority. And... because of my high like to post ratio. That is my history.

Moderatorship should not be held too long. Moderator duties should be assigned in groups on rotation shifts, just as the military and police do to avoid the established problems outlined above.
Moderatorship should be seen as an obligation and a duty to members to account for their active participation of the board.
By rotating the Mod Duties to All Active members, everyone has a time to fullfill that duty for a short time. It puts the membership of all contributors on more equal footing. Some may do it well, some may not, but the group polices eachother. Moderators are subject to the same rules as they are during their shifts as members. Bans can only be enacted by ruling majority and appeals to those bans carefully considered by the active members.
But...
No forum will Ever Consider this (Except possibly one...) because...
Once a person who enjoys their position of power has it- They will not give it up without a fight.
Now, I know I said I'm done and for the most part, I really am but...
I like to confront when people attack me. I like to defend myself instead of just taking the abuse.
And as always- my posts, both good and bad, even the ones where I made a fool of myself or acted badly too- they ALL stand as a record for any scientist to review and make up their Own Mind.

You, iNow, John Galt. I do not like you and you do not like me. But I don't hate you. I am sure that generally, you are good people. But you are just as human as I am. The only difference is that your positions sadly led you to be different from me in that regard... You forgot that you are a biased human being, just as susceptible to fault as I am. You forgot why we need the scientific method in order to pursue this one passion we share in.
And for this setting, that is a shame.

You can call these rants. You can call it a vial of nitro glycerin. You can call me crazy. Maybe I am crazy.
But maybe others, if these posts are not deleted and are allowed to remain, just maybe these gems will receive a dissertation... that will lead to an improvement in how moderatorship is viewed and conducted. Maybe it will make some readers reconsider how we all, even me, treat eachother.
None of us deserve to be under a moderators Boot due to a bias, due to a misunderstanding or due to a willingness, as Neil Degrasse Tyson has so profoundly put it: To question authority, test ideas, and think for yourself.
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_t ... tyson.html


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:22 am
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yes, i could call it a rant

i could also call it a glut of wordage that i can't be bothered to wade through

i could also call it v.v.v.boring

when i say there's history that is only to inform those who are not in the know that the reactions of iNow and myself are indeed slanted by previous ... shall we call them conversations ? otherwise they might wonder why we behave the way we do which to the uninformed might sound odd

it does not mean i want to elaborate on who said what when - that's history and boring too

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"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:07 am

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marnixR wrote:
when i say there's history that is only to inform those who are not in the know that the reactions of iNow and myself are indeed slanted by previous ... shall we call them conversations ?

This is interesting because :
iNow wrote:
I hold no ill will toward you. I frankly don't even remember you.

It was not until later, when he referenced a very old thread he linked to, that he claimed to remember me, finally. This was after that first post he made which was visibly- very reactive to what I set forth for "Trilobite" to do.
I have my history with you, too. MarnixR. I remember certain facets of your... honesty. Quite clearly. I might have liked to believe in the years between that might have changed. I'm confused why it is that you include iNow in your assumption. To the point that iNow's reaction is now all based on me being a "monster" that is scary.
Now both of you also reacted most strongly to my assigning "Trilobite" to the tasks of
-Making an ID that was presentable and respectful
-Putting up an Avatar that was the same
-Reading the forum rules, abiding by them and explaining them to me to ensure understanding
-Posting on the site daily, because that is the entire purpose of the exercise; to practice his writing, linguistic skills and typing in a debate setting.
I am willing to bet that... tail you are trying to cover... that you cannot offer a Good. Reasonable. Rational. Explanation as to why that elicited such an angry, offended response that warranted accusation and threats.
IF iNow had concerns, he could have asked about them and addressed them. Discussed it reasonably and calmly.
Not claimed sock puppetry moments after verifying the obviousness of having the Same I.P. Not by ordering him to disregard his purpose of participation (I'm worried about his study skills here!) and not by then threatening me with the Mod Hammer for frankly, such an absurd and yet so immediate reason.
You do not know "Trilobite" at all. Why assume so much? Too much?
You don't even really know ME.
marnixR wrote:
it does not mean i want to elaborate on who said what when

On this, I believe you.
I was VERY guarded about coming on here but it seemed, at the time, the most viable option. Spacetimeandtheuniverse has fallen into a... state of disrepair.
I will simply have to make do with it considering that frankly, at least they're HONEST in their vulgarity and hatreds. At least they are direct. There's no sneakiness to it.
This experience only demonstrated that my perceptions are not so flawed- I was correct to feel wary and guarded. Some things never change.

Don't even TRY playing it off like you were the ones being guarded. His post above yours contradicts that and frankly, even if he WAS, for some reason (especially since I do remember the lot of you and I got along with iNow just fine before) suddenly guarded, there was NOTHING in that assignment to Trilobite that was even mildly offensive, much less outrageous as you try to play it off to be.
He could have been guarded but still addressed the post for what it was without all that drama.

Im not perfect but I'm not ashamed that I was upset by his accusation and threat.

I Introduced my kid to your forum... because I am at my wits end trying to find ways to get him to understand the value and importance of his education. I was wary, yes. But I am also afraid for HIM. I NEED him to correct his path before it leads to worse self destructive behavior and I Honestly did think that would win out.
I'm still quite Stunned.
All your rationalizations and validations... it means nothing.
Because I really think that a Reasonable person would have been willing to tolerate me just posting a bit on a forum guiding a kid because of the Purpose to it. Regardless of whether it was you or me that was in the wrong years back.
I'm stunned but hey, at least I'm not at a loss for words.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:20 pm
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if you really want to interpret any utterance of mine in the worst possible light be my guest
just don't pretend I have said anything I haven't

I don't remember the detail of what went on in the past, nor do I feel like revisiting past conversations - all I remember is the bad taste you left in my mind, and from your recent outbursts I can tell you haven't changed one iota

so why do you expect me to be a different person after the passage of a few years ?

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"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:27 pm

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marnixR wrote:
if you really want to interpret any utterance of mine in the worst possible light be my guest
just don't pretend I have said anything I haven't

I do not need to... the inconsistencies of your statements are apparent.
You said you and iNow were guarded, iNow said he didn't remember me at all and next you say,
marnixR wrote:
I don't remember the detail of what went on in the past,

...
Well, I do. Vividly.

marnixR wrote:
nor do I feel like revisiting past conversations


Two possibilities are that you do not want to re-hash it, it is not worth it to dig and sift through the past... Which is valid. If you want it left in the past- then leave it in the past.
The other possibility is that in re-hashing it, it will be demonstrated that I have been honest. And that will demonstrate your bias.
I am open to finding out. Some of my older posts are pretty unflattering on me. But the vast majority of them are good and solid. Yeah, I wouldn't enjoy examining some of my posts where I made embarrassing mistakes or put my foot in my mouth. But I am still confident in the body of evidence given that taken as a whole, my posting history stands as I say it does. If you show one post that demonstrates me being a complete Fool (Which I am certain you can do), it does not represent nor is indicative of the thousands of others I had made.
marnixR wrote:
so why do you expect me to be a different person after the passage of a few years ?

In the passage of time, people do change. Sometimes, they learn from their mistakes. Sometimes, they get wiser. Sometimes bitter, even. I do not think it to be unreasonable... and it seems neither do you:
marnixR wrote:
from your recent outbursts I can tell you haven't changed one iota

Some things won't change and my personal decision not to be abused will probably not change.
Let me correct an error for you:
The first Outburst was from iNow. And yours as well where you both expressed how distasteful you found the assignment given to "Trilobite.'
Yet, as always, when you are confronted with the details- confronted as to what was so distasteful to warrant both of your outbursts, you duck and dodge. You waffle.
Let me be clear: My "outburst" was justified indignation at an uncalled for absurdity. An attack and accusation and a threat. It was utterly Needless and neither of you seem to be willing to accept your own responsibility for acting like... Self Righteous Jerks.

You are right, MarnixR. I did not accept your dodging, your waffling, your bias and your abuses back then, and I will not take them NOW.
I never even addressed you at all til this. I was fine to just Leave You Alone.
And if you really wanted it left in the past, you should have left your bias, your bad taste, your assumptions there with it instead of using it to attack in the present. Because I WILL use that past to defend from the past you tried to use against me as it stands a little differently than you wanted to impress it to be.
You have the option to leave it still: Just get your last word in, say "I hate you bugger off, leave it in the past" and I will... As long as you will.
But if you attack me again, I Will defend myself, just as always.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:46 pm
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**shrug**

if you're feeling attacked when i have not even tried to attack, then maybe you have too thin a skin for forums

remember : don't go out of your way to feel offended

and that's my last word in this sorry saga - life's too precious to keep mulling over the same old arguments time and time again

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"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


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Neverfly
Post  Post subject: Re: Adding a student to your site  |  Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:28 pm

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marnixR wrote:
if you're feeling attacked when i have not even tried to attack

Clarification: I did not say YOU attacked me, I said I was defensive against abuse. There is a difference but... rather than hash that out- see below.
marnixR wrote:
and that's my last word in this sorry saga -

Then I will leave you alone. Please do the same.


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