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kojax
Post  Post subject: Christianity and Sex [split from charity & evil]  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:15 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:

For sure.

Before you start to believe that those 77% are actual believers, note that in Finland, 95% claim to be Christian but only about 4% ever step into a church.

Christians, like their priests, tend to lie about their beliefs.

Regards
DL



I think most Christians honestly believe that EVERYONE ELSE should be following the ideals laid down by their god.

They might also use complicated legalistic logic to convince themselves they are ok with their God, despite doing bad things quite a lot. Since "nobody is perfect".

Even the Catholic priests who were molesting children probably still thought they'd make it to heaven if they said enough prayers and confessed their sins secretly to another priest.

There is no need to bash religion and what it attempts to accomplish (even if it often fails miserably to achieve it.) However it is important to ask yourself what you would believe about "right and wrong" if you had not been raised in a religion, and/or didn't come from a society overwhelmingly composed of people who have been raised in a religion.


If we want to leave religion out of it, we can also discusss Communist Idealism, which has all the same basic traits as Christianity, including the hypocrisy part. Few communists ever felt they, themselves, should be the ones from whom wealth would be taken and reidstributed.


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:08 pm
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kojax wrote:
[
Quote:
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]

For sure.

Before you start to believe that those 77% are actual believers, note that in Finland, 95% claim to be Christian but only about 4% ever step into a church.

Christians, like their priests, tend to lie about their beliefs.

Regards
DL



I think most Christians honestly believe that EVERYONE ELSE should be following the ideals laid down by their god.


I will give you one reply only here as I do not want to derail our friend's post. I have other's of my own on religion if you wish to engage on that.

If Christians wanted to live by the laws of their God, they would advocate for it the way Islam advocates for Sharia law. Christians do not because I think they are not interested in stoning their own unruly children or football players for touching a pigskin ball. That and there are just too many fornicators to stone.

Quote:
They might also use complicated legalistic logic to convince themselves they are ok with their God, despite doing bad things quite a lot. Since "nobody is perfect".


Including their genocidal baby torturing and killing God.

They have also developed a double set of moral standards so that they can forgive their God for the same infractions that they condemn men for.

Quote:
Even the Catholic priests who were molesting children probably still thought they'd make it to heaven if they said enough prayers and confessed their sins secretly to another priest.


I doubt that liars can self-delude that much but who can say.

Quote:
There is no need to bash religion and what it attempts to accomplish (even if it often fails miserably to achieve it.)


There is definitely a need to bash religions because they do a lot of harm to society. Most mainstream religions are homophobic and misogynous and should be bashed for those and other reasons.

Quote:
However it is important to ask yourself what you would believe about "right and wrong" if you had not been raised in a religion, and/or didn't come from a society overwhelmingly composed of people who have been raised in a religion.


And in asking ourselves that, we would learn that atheist nations fare better on criminal activity than religious ones. Especially when compared to the U.S. A nation that calls itself a Christian nation while having the highest incarceration stats in the free world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f2h-5 ... r_embedded

Quote:
If we want to leave religion out of it, we can also discusss Communist Idealism, which has all the same basic traits as Christianity, including the hypocrisy part. Few communists ever felt they, themselves, should be the ones from whom wealth would be taken and reidstributed.

[/quote]

We have never had a true communist nation just as we have never had a true Christian nation so I cannot speak to this.

Please do not reply to this here in deference to the O.P.

Thanks.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:54 pm
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The proportion of Christians who fornicate is probably pretty high. One of my friends, who has a really good heart, always striving to help people, volunteering at soup kitchens, engaging in social and care work i.e. a real good person in my book... well she emanates from Christian roots and has all the paraphernalia of commitment to the religion (holy communion). Yet I know for a fact that she has already had several different sexual partners - if she is representative of the religion then most of the congregation, according to the religion's own rules, would be liable for a stoning.

My personal attitude towards sex is liberal insofar as I don't think it makes you a 'bad' person to either want to or to actually engage in sex before marriage. I have never met a person who did not enjoy orgasms. However, I was reading this article and, if you skip over the 'listen to God don't think for yourself' BS, the points mentioned are accurate. The more you have sex the less special it becomes. I know of people genuinely looking for their life partner who engage in sexually active relationships along that journey, and after the first few people, the act must surely lose some of its significance?

http://www.orthodoxwriter.com/2012/03/reasons-not-to-fornicate-besides-god.html?m=1

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:41 pm
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Just searching for the reason why Christians regard sex in any context outside of marriage to be immoral, beyond the blanket answer 'it is spiritually damaging' (what do you mean by 'spirit'? They never answer this satisfactorily) and came across this from Matthew:

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Well, okay, but how are children then ever going to be born? How is a man ever to sustain an erection? Sexual lust facilitates the process of sex and without it, if you only had friendly feelings of love towards your spouse, you would not be biologically able to engage in intercourse.

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kojax
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:57 pm
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It's funny that Christian attitudes about sex are the most controversial in the modern world. In the old world, the reason not to have sex outside of marriage was very practical - so that when children are born everyone knows who the biological father is.

In the modern world we have reliable contraceptives, the possibility of abortion, and paternity tests that can prove who the father is.


So, what about the rest of Xian morality? Thou shalt not kill? What if you're in the middle of the wilderness and your friend just got gut stabbed, and will likely suffer excruciating pain over the next few hours before ultimately dying? He asks you to please put him out of his misery. Do you refuse?

Thou shalt not lie? Even in time of war? If the Nazis in World War II had wanted to know where the first wave of attacks would be coming from would it be wrong to lie to them in the hope of feeding them false intel?

I see a problem with moral absolutes in general.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:46 pm
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Your problem with moral absolutes is itself an absolute ;)

The major disadvantage of inventing absolute moral maxims for transmission down the generations is that, like the game 'Chinese whispers', subsequent generations receive a distorted message that crucially lacks the intellectual reasoning and context that qualified the original statement.

It's almost as silly as if an ancestral desert-based tribe noticed that sometimes snakes can become trapped in rudimentary footwear, and so they record by way of oral tradition the maxim 'it is wrong to wear footwear' - then transport that to a tarmac-laden 21st century context, with descendents not wearing shoes and not knowing the reason why, except to say 'we have been reliably informed by our authority that it is wrong to wear shoes'.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:53 am
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Rory wrote:
The proportion of Christians who fornicate is probably pretty high. One of my friends, who has a really good heart, always striving to help people, volunteering at soup kitchens, engaging in social and care work i.e. a real good person in my book... well she emanates from Christian roots and has all the paraphernalia of commitment to the religion (holy communion). Yet I know for a fact that she has already had several different sexual partners - if she is representative of the religion then most of the congregation, according to the religion's own rules, would be liable for a stoning.

My personal attitude towards sex is liberal insofar as I don't think it makes you a 'bad' person to either want to or to actually engage in sex before marriage. I have never met a person who did not enjoy orgasms. However, I was reading this article and, if you skip over the 'listen to God don't think for yourself' BS, the points mentioned are accurate. The more you have sex the less special it becomes. I know of people genuinely looking for their life partner who engage in sexually active relationships along that journey, and after the first few people, the act must surely lose some of its significance?

http://www.orthodoxwriter.com/2012/03/reasons-not-to-fornicate-besides-god.html?m=1


Eh. No.

People use it for a number of reasons. Including a tool for finding a life mate.

Even after all the screwing around etc. that people do, sex usually becomes a life long enjoyable pass time. Age related for sure but those who can, do.

I did have the one male friend who did not like it be he is the only one I have personally met who was not into it.

Regards
DL


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:59 am
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Rory wrote:
Just searching for the reason why Christians regard sex in any context outside of marriage to be immoral, beyond the blanket answer 'it is spiritually damaging' (what do you mean by 'spirit'? They never answer this satisfactorily) and came across this from Matthew:

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Well, okay, but how are children then ever going to be born? How is a man ever to sustain an erection? Sexual lust facilitates the process of sex and without it, if you only had friendly feelings of love towards your spouse, you would not be biologically able to engage in intercourse.


I think what the sages were wanting was that when you are with your wife, you are not to think of other women.

A man who was married for many years once told me that he never thought of his wife while with here and was always picturing other women.

That is sick to my mind and that lack of love just made his wife a handy and useful masturbation tool.

That religious admonition takes how we view others too far and has destroyed the wisdom of the saying.

Religions tend to do that.

Regards
DL


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:02 pm
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kojax wrote:
It's funny that Christian attitudes about sex are the most controversial in the modern world. In the old world, the reason not to have sex outside of marriage was very practical - so that when children are born everyone knows who the biological father is.

In the modern world we have reliable contraceptives, the possibility of abortion, and paternity tests that can prove who the father is.


So, what about the rest of Xian morality? Thou shalt not kill? What if you're in the middle of the wilderness and your friend just got gut stabbed, and will likely suffer excruciating pain over the next few hours before ultimately dying? He asks you to please put him out of his misery. Do you refuse?

Thou shalt not lie? Even in time of war? If the Nazis in World War II had wanted to know where the first wave of attacks would be coming from would it be wrong to lie to them in the hope of feeding them false intel?

I see a problem with moral absolutes in general.


Sins or crimes are not sins or crimes if the sinner or criminal does not have an evil intent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

All secular law is based on mens rea.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:13 pm
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Gnostic Bishop,

Your friend must be doing it wrong - either that, or he is asexual.

Can you explain to me why Christians regard sex as sinful?

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Is an absence of charity the same thing as evil?  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:47 pm
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Rory wrote:
Gnostic Bishop,

Your friend must be doing it wrong - either that, or he is asexual.

Can you explain to me why Christians regard sex as sinful?


Normal, married, one man one woman, is not sinful to them.

Everything else is including thought sins.

At one time such an attitude might have been justified to some extent but not for any modern nation or people.

We also need to remember that when those old restrictions were set into place, free sex would have taken business and a lot of income from the Temple Prostitutes who worked for the various religions.

Bottom line is that the rules were given to insure the church revenues continued as well as to cause guilt or false guilt in the theists and make it easier for the church to control them.

In those systems and city states where resources were finite and they were already killing or sacrificing the extra babies, it may have actually been decent rules.

For today. Those rules are draconian.

For the ancients, we should also remember that they were trying to make adult married sex sacred.

That is a hard thing for me to put down as it would go long but let me drop a link that speaks of that. More near the end of this longish link but I have nothing shorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TndLzFZI9A

I could have you start it up at about the 50 min mark but the way the information is given, you might not get the theology. It is complicated.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Christianity and Sex [split from charity & evil]  |  Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:26 pm
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Are there any reasons that remain standing, from a Christian point of view, even if it were proven that God does not exist?

Most of the reasons normally given refer to the human body as a temple for the Holy Spirit - so, what if my body is purely mine, and the consequences of sexual (in)activity - be they positive or negative - purely in the realm of the physical, psychological and emotional?

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kojax
Post  Post subject: Re: Christianity and Sex [split from charity & evil]  |  Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:21 am
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The main reason I can think of is just the high number of single mothers that result from free sex. Maybe both partners go into it thinking that *maybe* they'd both be up for raising a child together, but then she misses her period and one or both (usually the guy) gets cold feet about the whole idea of spending their life together just so the kid can have two parents.


It's all a lot easier if they agree ahead of time about the whole "life together" issue, before there is a kid in place.

Or they just hope she won't get pregnant (but contraception is never quite 100% effective.) Or she thinks she'll be ok getting an abortion but once she gets there she finds she just can't quite bring herself to kill the thing inside her.


Ultimately an innocent child is the one who has to suffer from their lack of foresight.


And.... harming an innocent child would tend to be looked upon badly from nearly any moral point of view.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Christianity and Sex [split from charity & evil]  |  Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:25 pm
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But if you were using both the contraceptive pill (effectiveness 99%) and condoms (effectiveness 95%) it is vanishingly unlikely that an unwanted pregnancy would result.

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