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Rory
Post  Post subject: Microchipping  |  Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:07 pm
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Imagine if every citizen were microchipped in a location that is non-invasive but also that renders the indestructable chip difficult to remove (and, hypothetically, refractory to information misuse) - probably 90% of the police force's workload would disappear.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:58 pm
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I could see it cutting down on identity theft big time. Also cases of mistaken incarceration would be pretty much nonexistent. Sure you could pay to have your chip removed and implanted in someone else, but that that would take a lot more work than it would be worth.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:22 pm
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It would make finding murder victims a hell of a lot easier. And if it gives you real time tracking capability and the potential to record movement data for retrospective analysis then officers would no longer have to ask (and prove), 'where were you on the night of so-and-so'?

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:32 am
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Well I don't know if it would make finding murder victims easier. A smart killer would just adapt a technique that either destroys the microchip or masks it. Either cremate their victims ,hit them with an EMP before they even are murdered or excise the microchip from the victims body postmortem. The last option could lead to lots of wild goose chases. However, the chip would help find missing people.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:32 am
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Yeah, the criminal could extract the chip and completely destroy the body, but at least if the chips were indestructable, resistant to masking and capable of performing real time and retrospective tracking then the search area would be reduced from whole towns/cities/nations to specific pathways - not all of those sites on the breadcrumb trail will be bona fide hits but one or more of them, necessarily, must be.

This technology would help particularly in cases of murder that are not pre-meditated, in which the criminal has neither the time nor means to discreetly dispose of the body and extract the chip - consider the cases even today when unsophisticated murderers dump the victim's body in a river or field.

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:22 pm
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How might such chip technology be misused by folks with nefarious intent?

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:36 pm
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Absolutely iNow, there will be various motives for abusing the information availability, from tracking a spouse to check their fidelity, to tracking somebody for stalking or even (ironically) murder purposes. I don't think there's any way of getting around that risk, since for every technological precaution (e.g. encryption) there will always be an inherently corruptible human element. We have seen this with the NSA's and GCHQ's over-surveillance of citizens as well as the large scale storage of images of innocent citizens by the UK police force. So then the question is, do the advantages associated with microchipping, exceed the risks?

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:33 pm
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Rory wrote:
Yeah, the criminal could extract the chip and completely destroy the body, but at least if the chips were indestructable, resistant to masking and capable of performing real time and retrospective tracking ...


how would you make a chip indestructable
as a metallurgist i know that dunking a body into liquid steel would get rid of all the evidence, including the chip (think the end scene in "A Kiss before Dying")

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billvon
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:33 pm

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Rory wrote:
Imagine if every citizen were microchipped in a location that is non-invasive but also that renders the indestructable chip difficult to remove (and, hypothetically, refractory to information misuse) - probably 90% of the police force's workload would disappear.

True, but do you really want that? Consider your mail at the end of every week, when the police mail you all the tickets for jaywalking, speeding and loitering you have accrued throughout the week.


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:50 pm
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marnix, good point, but how many people have access to a molten steel vat? Not to mention that steel factories tend to have CCTV in operation. You would want to make the chip resistant to the sorts of physical and chemical agents that most people have access to - including, for example: extreme pressure, heat and acid.

billvon, the request for retrieval of tracking information could be subject to approval by the Home Office (or equivalent government department, in other countries) and for use only in extreme circumstances (e.g. missing people and murder investigations).

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Last edited by Rory on Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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billvon
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:54 pm

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Rory wrote:
billvon, the conditions for retrieval of tracking information could be subject to approval by the Home Office (or equivalent department, in other countries) and for use only in extreme circumstances (e.g. missing people and murder investigations).

Sure, and that would work until the next election.
"I will cut taxes by cracking down on criminals!" (by using tracking data to send tickets to scofflaws, and using that money to reduce taxes.) "Vote for me, and not my opponent who will coddle criminals and keep their crimes secret!"
As has been demonstrated several times, once a technology is available it will be used, and in ways we neither expect nor want.


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:40 pm
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Rory wrote:
marnix, good point, but how many people have access to a molten steel vat? Not to mention that steel factories tend to have CCTV in operation. You would want to make the chip resistant to the sorts of physical and chemical agents that most people have access to - including, for example: extreme pressure, heat and acid.


not sure if CCTV is in place everywhere - if you can hide a body in the scrap that is charged into the furnace then you're quids in

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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:40 pm
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Rory wrote:
billvon, the request for retrieval of tracking information could be subject to approval by the Home Office (or equivalent government department, in other countries) and for use only in extreme circumstances (e.g. missing people and murder investigations).

Or it could be hacked by a clever kid with little more than a computer and an internet connection...

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:54 am
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I can't imagine there are many steel works that don't have CCTV - management needs to be able to monitor activities both for quality control and for Health and Safety reasons - companies (if not due to human compassion) will want to avoid the kinds of fines (£200,000) imposed on UK firms where workers accidentally fell into molten steel and died. CCTV will help to this end by allowing employers to observe working practices and improve their safety where necessary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1114146.stm

The chips could possibly be hacked - but then, so could online banking or any 'smart' device - you don't see people abandoning such technologies, and the reason is that the advantages they provide outweigh the inconvenience of hacks.

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:37 pm
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Rory wrote:
I can't imagine there are many steel works that don't have CCTV


i don't think you're familiar with how scrap is charged in the steelmaking process - you use a bucket like the one below

Image

if you manage to get a body into that bucket, which would happen in the scrap yard (where there's far less chance of CCTV footage), then you wouldn't see a thing when the actual charging takes place

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:36 pm
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I see - I'm certainly not familiar with steel works. The solution here would be to improve security throughout the workplace. I.e. surround the site with security gates and barbed wire and make 100% of the site observable by CCTV - and use turnstiles so that employees cannot attempt to smuggle a corpse in. Gosh, this conversation has gone awful macabre :shock:

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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:23 pm
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mind you, there are random checks for cars leaving the works, but funny enough not for entering
so provided you don't intend to bring the body bag out again, security wouldn't worry you too much

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:18 pm
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Not everyone thinks like you do, marnix... I doubt that the imagination of a layman would extend that far. And even if it did, comprehensive security and CCTV would overcome the problem.

On a side note, it's funny to think that we live in an age that technologically enables the family heirloom to consist of a lifetime's worth of stored electronic data in the form of CCTV, GPS tracking data, website access data, texts, phone calls, blogs, social media posts and Google Street view snaps. Rather than handing down the family line a few photos and key facts relating to a person's life, it is almost possible to re-live their experiences. I wonder if this will destroy ancestral mysticism: no longer the yellowing photo of a beguiling lady, but a facebook post by a great-great gran of the shepherds pie she had for tea... and the realisation that she probably had nothing better to do.

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Tanpire
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:40 am
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Rory wrote:

The chips could possibly be hacked - but then, so could online banking or any 'smart' device - you don't see people abandoning such technologies, and the reason is that the advantages they provide outweigh the inconvenience of hacks.
It doesn't exactly cause people to flock to these technologies either. I don't think a single person in my neighborhood owns any smart home device. (granted, my neighborhood is a bit quirky, and certainly doesn't speak for other populations) My neighbor's quirks aside, this microchip idea would inevitably start a privacy debate, which would only get messier from there.

Personally, I'd be OK with it. But not everyone would be.

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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:46 am
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Tanpire wrote:
Rory wrote:

The chips could possibly be hacked - but then, so could online banking or any 'smart' device - you don't see people abandoning such technologies, and the reason is that the advantages they provide outweigh the inconvenience of hacks.
It doesn't exactly cause people to flock to these technologies either. I don't think a single person in my neighborhood owns any smart home device. (granted, my neighborhood is a bit quirky, and certainly doesn't speak for other populations) My neighbor's quirks aside, this microchip idea would inevitably start a privacy debate, which would only get messier from there.

Personally, I'd be OK with it. But not everyone would be.

Out of curiosity do you live in the US? Because I live in a very rural area of the US and I know plenty of people over the age of sixty that have smart devices even. Just seems like a very quirky thing to live in an area that doesn't have anyone owning a smart device, if it's the US at least. I'm unsure of the proliferation of smart devices outside the US. I know in the US approximately two hundred million people own smart phones. Which is about two thirds of our population.

The microchip idea definitely raises a big privacy concern, but in reality personal privacy is already extremely diminished from what it was twenty years ago. If you have an internet presence, you immediately have lost a degree of privacy, and the second you leave your house your privacy drops even further. When two thirds of the population has a recording (photo/video/sound/GPS) device on them at any given time, the chances of your actions in public being recorded in some way are extremely high. The US government can even remote activate your smart phone after all, of course to do so they would already have to have a set up monitoring you so it's not likely to just randomly happen.

Privacy is an interesting debate though.

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Lynx_Fox
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:40 am

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I can't think of anyone I know that has a smart home device, but then again I'm not sure I'd recognise one.

As for micro-chipping I'd doubt many of my age (mid 50s) would welcome such as an idea. I don't think anyone in the government has any right whatsoever to know much about me or my family beyond the very basics required to run the government such as my address, particularly where I am at any time. I also don't think it would solve as much crime as people think it might, because under current laws, you'd need probable cause and often a court order to get such information to even start the investigation.


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Falconer360
Post  Post subject: Re: Microchipping  |  Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:00 am
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Lynx_Fox wrote:
I can't think of anyone I know that has a smart home device, but then again I'm not sure I'd recognise one.

As for micro-chipping I'd doubt many of my age (mid 50s) would welcome such as an idea. I don't think anyone in the government has any right whatsoever to know much about me or my family beyond the very basics required to run the government such as my address, particularly where I am at any time. I also don't think it would solve as much crime as people think it might, because under current laws, you'd need probable cause and often a court order to get such information to even start the investigation.


I took Tanpire's comment to mean smart devices in general, hopefully they can clarify if they meant smart home devices or just smart devices in their homes. I do know plenty of people with smart TVs and some of those Google things though. But I was talking more about the proliferation of all smart devices, everything from tablets and phones to Smart TVs.

I too would not welcome such a tracking system. You're also probably right about it not solving as many crimes. The whole thing to me is too invasive for my taste. We already have very little privacy as it is anymore.

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