FAQ
It is currently Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:14 pm


Author Message
Prometheus
Post  Post subject: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:06 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:58 am
Posts: 309

Offline
I've never understood the objections to euthanasia, most of which seem to revolve around a fear that it will abused to bump old people off for their money, or will make old people feel obliged to do it as they feel like a burden.

But these seem like pretty weak arguments - are there other or am i missing something with the above objections?


Top
Macgyver1968
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:00 am
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 49
Location: Dallas, Texas

Offline
Sooo....if you're current lifestyle allows you to out live your usefulness to society....will you lay down your life?

_________________
Fixin' shit that ain't broke.


Top
scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:45 am
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am
Posts: 202
Location: Singapore

Offline
Prometheus wrote:
I've never understood the objections to euthanasia, most of which seem to revolve around a fear that it will abused to bump old people off for their money, or will make old people feel obliged to do it as they feel like a burden.

But these seem like pretty weak arguments - are there other or am i missing something with the above objections?

To my recollection, many of the (more passionate) arguments against that I've encountered/read are largely of the slippery slope type - pushing the notion that many if not every negligent/malicious pertaining to "non-voluntary" variant of possible outcomes will likely be advanced; should euthanasia be legalised. It has been an effective appeal to emotion push in some of the more influential circles, and policy makers who are representatives of these circles - plus aren't incentivised to critically and logically explore these arguments are in a position to set the stage.

The wikipedia entry gave a reference to a study conducted in Netherlands below if you are interested in reading more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2733179/


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:19 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
The main argument presented against euthenasia is, as you say, a concern that some vulnerable members of society may come to regard it as incumbent upon themselves to take their own lufe by euthenasia, or else may be coerced into doing so by others. To my mind neither of these arguments is sufficiently convincing to warrant the current situation in which terminally ill patients and those with no quality of life are denied the option to end their own suffering in a controlled and painless way. Frankly, the above two arguments fail to recognise that a person who feels worthless is already able to take their own life by other means, and some sadly do so, as such euthenasia would add no additional risk in this respect. Secondly, anybody who is inclined to force another to commit suicide is already able to do so using other methods. All that is required in order for euthenasia to be safe is for the process of applying for permission to ahead with the procedure be vetted in a robust way so that patient consent is affirmed and so that the croteria for being allowed to proceed are strict enough to prevent the needless loss of lufe e.g. this could include medical verification that a terminally ill patient is in the last 6 months of life, or is in the lazt interval of suffering-free life, whichever is shorter. There would also need to be a process for verifying the absence of quality of life for people living with extreme conditions such as locked-in syndrome.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:56 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5657
Location: Iowa

Offline
I am uncertain how common it is is, but one objection I've heard more than once is a religious one. The form is usually along the lines of, "God will call him/her home when he's ready and it's not our place to make Gods decision for him."

Another, and I'm also unclear of commonality on this one, is that medical progress and breakthroughs happen everyday and we should never give up since a cure or resolution could be made available tomorrow and that would force us to live henceforth laden with regret. Basically, oUr impatience could havE unnecessarily caused the end of a life That could have been saved.

Something about which I'm personally curious on this issue relates to the threshold of a go/no-go decision and how any regulations might address that. Many of us agree in theory that merciful termination of life should be allowed, but few of us agree or have operational clarity around when that discussion or decision process should rightfully initiate or be carried forward.

An 82 year old person with stage 4 cancer and heart disease and treatment is failing, sure. Makes sense to allow euthanasia, but what if they only have heart disease? Should the 82 year old be allowed to pull the plug then if cancer is absent? What if they are only 50? What if they are 40 and just on dialysis or 30 and are only diabetic or 20 and merely balding or 15 with acne? What if the person lacks the mental health to provide informed consent? At what point do we allow others to make these decisions about our life on our behalf? How do we ensure those individuals are not acting selfishly or in their own best interests and have the patients overall wellbeing in mind?

These are hard questions. I'm curious what other people think as this is where I suspect more of the actual friction exists on this topic and why we seem to be at an impasse on moving forward with any new regulations.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
bunbury
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:42 pm
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:55 am
Posts: 978
Location: Denver, Colorado

Offline
If a terminally ill person is mentally competent that person's end of life wishes should be respected. I suspect that resistance to euthanasia is based more on religion than on other considerations. Just as religious objections to abortion can result in more backstreet coat hanger abortions, so religious objections to euthanasia may lead to more messy suicides.


Top
Prometheus
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:58 am
Posts: 309

Offline
Macgyver1968 wrote:
Sooo....if you're current lifestyle allows you to out live your usefulness to society....will you lay down your life?


Strawman. The question is whether others should be allowed to help me end my life at my request, not whether society decides if my life is forfeit at the end of my usefulness.

If it's the slippery slope argument, scoobydoo's linked article provides evidence this does not occur. Do have contrary evidence?

iNow wrote:
Another, and I'm also unclear of commonality on this one, is that medical progress and breakthroughs happen everyday and we should never give up since a cure or resolution could be made available tomorrow and that would force us to live henceforth laden with regret. Basically, oUr impatience could havE unnecessarily caused the end of a life That could have been saved.


But euthanasia need not impinge upon someone else's right to see it through right to the end. I guess you are thinking of chronic conditions such as locked-in-syndrome. I believe the choice should be the individuals either way.

iNow wrote:
An 82 year old person with stage 4 cancer and heart disease and treatment is failing, sure. Makes sense to allow euthanasia, but what if they only have heart disease? Should the 82 year old be allowed to pull the plug then if cancer is absent? What if they are only 50? What if they are 40 and just on dialysis or 30 and are only diabetic or 20 and merely balding or 15 with acne?


Somewhere between the 2 extremes we will have to draw the line. But this is where ethics stops and law starts and i have no ability to navigate that minefield. I guess we will be looking to forward thinking countries such as Holland for guidance.

iNow wrote:
What if the person lacks the mental health to provide informed consent? At what point do we allow others to make these decisions about our life on our behalf? How do we ensure those individuals are not acting selfishly or in their own best interests and have the patients overall wellbeing in mind?.


Consent for those lacking understanding is a well explored area in medical ethics already. Extending this to euthanasia, though difficult, may not be as difficult as some of the other ethical and legal challenges involved.


Top
marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:17 am
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 pm
Posts: 4827
Location: Cardiff, Wales

Offline
has anyone picked up on this case yet ?

Right-to-die: Grandmother starves herself to death after UK's assisted suicide laws left her with 'no alternative'

_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet" (xkcd)


Top
Prometheus
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:03 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:58 am
Posts: 309

Offline
I would find it amusing were it not so tragic that we expect elderly people to live their medically extended lives right to end but spend as little money or time on them as possible.


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:15 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
Another advantage of euthanasia is that those people for whom there is no objective medical reason for their perceived lack of quality of life, i.e. those who otherwise would commit suicide by other means or else live in misery, will be flagged up to the attention of the medical professionals who then may redirect those individuals to counsellors or social services or to whatever service provider is required to turn their lufe around.

I was thinking about the implucations of euthanasia for end-of-life ceremonies. Currently,the precise timing of death is unknown for the vast majority of people: even those whho are aware of being terminally ill or those in their last days of life in hospital typically are unable to predict the exact timing of their passing, and so of course none of their friends or family members know either. Euthanasia would make not only the nature but the timing of death predictable so that, instead of the traditional funeral, at which friends and relatives sometimes lament having not had the opportunity to say a final goodbye in person, there would be the possibility of real-time goodbyes thatmight provide more comfort. The patient and all of their loved ones could come togetger after a farewell party or more sombre farewell ceremony, for the joint witness of the passing. After all, it would be just like watching a lived one go to sleep, and tgeir closing their eyes to a world they love surrounded by the people they love, knowing that what lies ahead for them is a painless gentle sleep like all the others they have enjoyed, only this time they will not be waking up fron that slumber. In my opinion that kind of death is more vompassionate and meaningful than the current situation.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:21 am
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5657
Location: Iowa

Offline
Should euthanasia have the same impact on beneficiaries as would a suicide when it comes to the transfer of wealth and debt or the payout of a life insurance policy?

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:41 am
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am
Posts: 202
Location: Singapore

Offline
iNow wrote:
Should euthanasia have the same impact on beneficiaries as would a suicide when it comes to the transfer of wealth and debt or the payout of a life insurance policy?

I suspect it would if the life insurance policy does not have an exclusion clause, as euthanasia is still fundamentally considered suicide - with the addition of assistance; for the purpose of alleviating suffering. I somehow doubt that it would be reworked to appear otherwise.


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:55 am
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
If euthanasia were to become legal in the UK and US then I suspect that the insurance companies would update their policies accordingly. A 6 month difference either way robably doesn't have much impact on their profit margins. Moreover, the probability that any given customer would spontaneously develop an extremely life-limiting condition, e.g. locked-in syndrome, remains low and could be verified by a simple medical check. Those companies that fail to be forward-looking and fail to move with public opinion will be outcompeted by more innovative competitors.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:39 pm
User avatar
Original Member
Original Member

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:40 pm
Posts: 5657
Location: Iowa

Offline
If that 6 months allows them to refuse payout entirely, then of course it impacts the bottom line and I find it unlikely that compassion would outweigh profit motive. I suspect this too would be considered a disqualifying event.

_________________
iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:33 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
My suggestion was that controlled death by euthanasia be treated in the same way as death by natural causes in cases in which the death that would occur anyway by natural causes (terminal illness) is accelerated by 6 months (at the verification of disease timescales by medical professionals). As such, insurance companies would not need to change their policies except to say, 'controlled death by euthanasia is to be treated in the same manner as death by natural causes when the time lapse between actual and estimated death is less than equal to 6 months'.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
scoobydoo1
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:47 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am
Posts: 202
Location: Singapore

Offline
That may apply to clear cut cases when faced with terminal illness, but how you apply that to the example that marnixR has brought up?

"The former maths teacher, 86, did not have a terminal illness, but suffered a range of conditions that made her life uncomfortable including chronic back pain and fainting episodes."


Top
Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Euthanasia  |  Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:49 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am
Posts: 1921

Offline
One way to deal with this is to reflect the increased unpredictability in the premium, or to have multiple products specifically for different age ranges, and to have an initial compulsory no-claim period. There are many ways to recoup costs associated with increased risk and I think that's probably preferable to having no product options in the event that euthanasia be legalised.

_________________
If you are doomed to be boring - make it short. Andre Geim


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Print view

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
Jump to:   
cron

Delete all board cookies | The team | All times are UTC


This free forum is proudly hosted by ProphpBB | phpBB software | Report Abuse | Privacy