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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:21 pm
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Rory wrote:
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Only a fool thinks he can create true love by himself.


'Fool' isn't the word I would use :lol:

Of course, it is unfortunate that sometimes love goes unrequited, and so there is not that opportunity for personal growth and for the flourishing of a relationship. But that does not mean to say that the feelings that the one has for the other, are not real, are not love.


Infatuation and idol worship is not love.

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DL


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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:28 pm
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marnixR wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Only a fool thinks he can create true love by himself.


it's not an unknown phenomenon : i know plenty of songs that celebrate the combination of fool and love, and having been head over heels in love with someone, i know i often was a fool then, independent of whether the love was reciprocated or not


True love is supposed to be special, yet what you were head over heals over was a fantasy as you did not know what you were loving, --- as no reciprocity had taken place.

For all you know, reciprocity from the one you loved included whips and chains.

See what I mean?

Yours could not be a true love as you did not know the character of the one you loved.

I was quite attracted to a girl in a bar this one time. I was falling in love until the bartender told me she was a he.

Perhaps if you had gotten far enough to have the same surprise from the girl you loved, would you continue to love him/her?

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DL


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:43 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
In my opinion, Infatuation and idol worship is not love. Obviously, others may have a different view on the topic, and that's okay, too.

There. FTFY.

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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:08 pm
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Quote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Infatuation and idol worship is not love.


How do you know the difference?

Love often involves idolatry: just look at wives who idolise their husbands and vice versa.

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
True love is supposed to be special, yet what you were head over heals over was a fantasy as you did not know what you were loving, --- as no reciprocity had taken place.


Well, the person would be in love with their best-informed impression of the other. But that is true in any relationship, even in marriage based on reciprocal love – there will always be aspects of the other that one does not know or appreciate, or might not even be capable of understanding. Everybody has secrets. It does not follow that every relationship on the planet lacks love.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:56 pm
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Rory wrote:
[
Quote:
quote]Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Infatuation and idol worship is not love.


How do you know the difference?


I looked up the definitions in the dictionary and compared them to what my wife and I share and they were not the same.

Quote:
Love often involves idolatry: just look at wives who idolise their husbands and vice versa.


I have yet to hear a man or woman use that term for their spouse and don't know how they would apply it.

Quote:
Quote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
True love is supposed to be special, yet what you were head over heals over was a fantasy as you did not know what you were loving, --- as no reciprocity had taken place.


Well, the person would be in love with their best-informed impression of the other. But that is true in any relationship, even in marriage based on reciprocal love – there will always be aspects of the other that one does not know or appreciate, or might not even be capable of understanding. Everybody has secrets. It does not follow that every relationship on the planet lacks love.


Correct and no one even hinted at such a situation.

But to say you have a loving relationship with someone who does not reciprocate or act on that love shows that it is not there.

I do not know how you love but I have to show love and only seeing it reflected back can I tell that I am sharing a true love with someone.

Jesus said of faith, you will know them by their works. Love is the same. You will know who is in love with whom by their works towards each other.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:49 pm
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GB,

That's funny because I just looked up the definition of love in the dictionary, the first entry is: 'warm liking for a person or thing'. Note the lack of requirement that the feeling be returned.

Just because your wife does not idolise you does not mean that others do not idolise theirs.

And I never suggested that unrequited love involves any kind of two-way relationship: that's the unrequited part.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:57 pm
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Rory wrote:
GB,

That's funny because I just looked up the definition of love in the dictionary, the first entry is: 'warm liking for a person or thing'. Note the lack of requirement that the feeling be returned.

Just because your wife does not idolise you does not mean that others do not idolise theirs.

And I never suggested that unrequited love involves any kind of two-way relationship: that's the unrequited part.


Do you recall about 20 odd years ago, all you heard was people talking about how they loved their hair and their shoes and just about any inanimate objects from soup to cars.

If you wish to degrade true love to that then go ahead. I will not. I like that that word, when used seriously, still hold the meaning it was meant to have.

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DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:05 pm
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No, it is not possible to literally love an inanimate object, and I would agree with you that to use the term in such a way is sloppy language at best.

But since you made reference to the published dictionary definition of love I thought it prudent to do the same. Don't shoot the messenger.

None of which contravenes my point that to love a person unidirectionally is possible and - more importantly - happens all the time in reality.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:33 pm
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Rory wrote:
No, it is not possible to literally love an inanimate object, and I would agree with you that to use the term in such a way is sloppy language at best.

But since you made reference to the published dictionary definition of love I thought it prudent to do the same. Don't shoot the messenger.

None of which contravenes my point that to love a person unidirectionally is possible and - more importantly - happens all the time in reality.


Then the lover is self deluding himself as he does not know the character of the one loved because it has not returned anything.

Call that love if you like. I would not. I cannot fathom loving someone whose character I do not know but I am not the delusional type. No more delusional than the normal that is. We likely all make small mental adjustments for those we love. You take it to a foolish extent though. Not you personally you understand.

So tell us what is being loved if not the character of the other?

Is it just the physical, as the mental is not known, or what?

Regards
DL


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marnixR
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:39 pm
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real love is total, no possible splitting between heart, body or soul - it's all there in the mix, not to be separated

how can you possibly love with your mind alone ? love is first and foremost an emotion, not a cerebral process

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:08 pm
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marnixR wrote:
real love is total, no possible splitting between heart, body or soul - it's all there in the mix, not to be separated

how can you possibly love with your mind alone ? love is first and foremost an emotion, not a cerebral process


All emotions start with the mind that must be used to perceive or interpret what your senses tell you.

Add these sayings and see what you think.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:00 pm
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GB,

The fallacy underlying your argument is that you assume that it is not possible to have knowledge of the character of a person outside the context of a romantic/sexual relationship. This is not necessarily true since there are many ways to obtain information on a person and to subsequently judge their character - e.g. in a work or social context that involves a lot of regular contact involving the exchange of actions, thoughts, ideas and emotions. There is the obvious possibility of being in love with a close friend. The added advantage of learning the character of a person in this way is that, so long as the other person does not anticipate your feelings, they will not think to change their behaviour in any way in order to intentionally increase or decrease their attractiveness in your perception. The same cannot be said for committed relationships in which certain pressures cause one partner or the other to modify their behaviour and/or speech to portray to the other person the image of a character they want to be perceived to be.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:27 pm
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Rory wrote:
GB,

The fallacy underlying your argument is that you assume that it is not possible to have knowledge of the character of a person outside the context of a romantic/sexual relationship. This is not necessarily true since there are many ways to obtain information on a person and to subsequently judge their character - e.g. in a work or social context that involves a lot of regular contact involving the exchange of actions, thoughts, ideas and emotions. There is the obvious possibility of being in love with a close friend. The added advantage of learning the character of a person in this way is that, so long as the other person does not anticipate your feelings, they will not think to change their behaviour in any way in order to intentionally increase or decrease their attractiveness in your perception. The same cannot be said for committed relationships in which certain pressures cause one partner or the other to modify their behaviour and/or speech to portray to the other person the image of a character they want to be perceived to be.


One cannot know the loving character of another who does not know it is loved and who does not have the opportunity to return that love.

Sure, as you say, some of the characteristics of that person can be known, but they would change under the influence of love.

Your natural character might be gruff, let's say, but if you were talking to someone you knew loved you, your gruffness would likely be tempered by the love you send back. Unless of course you do not love the other party.

Then you would not be returning the love and there would not be any true love in your relationship. True love takes two. Less than two is just you feeding your own delusions and ego.

Again. I do not mean you personally.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:16 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Then you would not be returning the love and there would not be any true love in your relationship. True love takes two. Less than two is just you feeding your own delusions and ego.


I agree up to this point.

I don't know how to progress the discussion any further in a fruitful way because you seem to be content with making statements as if they were self-evident truths i.e. 'True love takes two.'

There is no delusion because there is no false belief; the unidirectional lover does not falsely believe the other person to be in love with them, nor do they have false beliefs about that person's persona, since the latter is informed by observation.

There is certainly nothing ego-boosting about being in love with someone who does not return that love - quite the opposite.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:39 am
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Rory wrote:
Quote:
[
Quote:
b]Gnostic Bishop wrote:[/b]
Then you would not be returning the love and there would not be any true love in your relationship. True love takes two. Less than two is just you feeding your own delusions and ego.


I agree up to this point.

I don't know how to progress the discussion any further in a fruitful way because you seem to be content with making statements as if they were self-evident truths i.e. 'True love takes two.'


I though you just agreed. Or were you agreeing to some other point?

Quote:
There is no delusion because there is no false belief; the unidirectional lover does not falsely believe the other person to be in love with them, nor do they have false beliefs about that person's persona, since the latter is informed by observation.


Only a fool would fall in love just by distant observation.

I foolishly fell into infatuation like that the one time. It did not end well the moment she opened her mouth.

Quote:
There is certainly nothing ego-boosting about being in love with someone who does not return that love - quite the opposite.


I agree.

I think we got confused here a bit. You continue to think you can be in true love all by yourself.

I will never be convinced as I believe true love is share by two.

I do not mind looking at arguments but we might be done here.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:29 pm
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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I think we got confused here a bit. You continue to think you can be in true love all by yourself.

I will never be convinced as I believe true love is share by two.

I do not mind looking at arguments but we might be done here.


Your definition of 'true love' just smacks to me of the twaddle we tend to tell children about princes and princesses and how, it was clearly true love, because when the prince kissed the princess' lips she awoke and they rode into the sunset. That is to say, to me, it seems a tad infantile and to ignore the everyday reality in which love takes on many different forms and is reciprocated not in a binary fashion but in a much more complicated way. Imagine, for example, a typical marriage based on mutual love - the relationship is not static with each grinning ear-to-ear 24/7. There are likely to be low points, high points and everything in between in what is a (hopefully) lifelong journey.

In my opinion any kind of loving feeling constitutes real love, that is, love which exists in reality, even if not reciprocated, and that is what I would mean by 'true love'. The only time that love is not real or true is in those cases when the feelings are faked, when they are not, in fact, felt.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:00 pm
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Rory wrote:
Quote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I think we got confused here a bit. You continue to think you can be in true love all by yourself.

I will never be convinced as I believe true love is share by two.

I do not mind looking at arguments but we might be done here.


Your definition of 'true love' just smacks to me of the twaddle we tend to tell children about princes and princesses and how, it was clearly true love, because when the prince kissed the princess' lips she awoke and they rode into the sunset. That is to say, to me, it seems a tad infantile and to ignore the everyday reality in which love takes on many different forms and is reciprocated not in a binary fashion but in a much more complicated way. Imagine, for example, a typical marriage based on mutual love - the relationship is not static with each grinning ear-to-ear 24/7. There are likely to be low points, high points and everything in between in what is a (hopefully) lifelong journey.

In my opinion any kind of loving feeling constitutes real love, that is, love which exists in reality, even if not reciprocated, and that is what I would mean by 'true love'. The only time that love is not real or true is in those cases when the feelings are faked, when they are not, in fact, felt.


Yes, high points and low points test and strengthens love between two people and shows itself to be true love by weathering those storms.

When what love only goes one way, it never has a chance to prove itself as it is based on delusion and cannot prove it's strength.

If it cannot prove or show itself then it is not real love. It is infatuation or some other adjective.

It is said that we should love others as ourselves.

How do you show that you love yourself? By works and deeds. Right?

You feed, clothe and care for yourself. If you did not doo these deeds you would die. Your love must this be expressed by deeds. Why then would you change how you love when you say you love another?

Love is something you give to a recipient. You cannot just hang on to it for your own good feelings.
If you love someone you will crave to share those good feelings. If not then it is not love.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:07 pm
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You seem to be defining love retrospectively, i.e. if everything works out and the couple stay together then it is love, anything short of this and it is infatuation. Just because a relationship does not last forever does not mean to say that for the duration of its existence the relationship was bereft of love. By way of analogy, your approach is like mixing together and baking a bunch of ingredients; those that happen to conform to the expectations in terms of texture, taste and appearance are labelled 'cakes' and anything short of this is not even a cake. Not even a shortcake :lol:

Most people experiencing unidirectional love will want to express and share the feeling in deeds as well as words but this is not always possible e.g. in cases in which the loved one is married.

Unreciprocated love has some advantages - for one, the feeling never fades whereas it sometimes does so in long-term relationships. Also there is no risk of expectations being disappointed. There is none of the pressure of relationships.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:59 am
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Rory wrote:
You seem to be defining love retrospectively, i.e. if everything works out and the couple stay together then it is love, anything short of this and it is infatuation. Just because a relationship does not last forever does not mean to say that for the duration of its existence the relationship was bereft of love. By way of analogy, your approach is like mixing together and baking a bunch of ingredients; those that happen to conform to the expectations in terms of texture, taste and appearance are labelled 'cakes' and anything short of this is not even a cake. Not even a shortcake :lol:

Most people experiencing unidirectional love will want to express and share the feeling in deeds as well as words but this is not always possible e.g. in cases in which the loved one is married.

Unreciprocated love has some advantages - for one, the feeling never fades whereas it sometimes does so in long-term relationships. Also there is no risk of expectations being disappointed. There is none of the pressure of relationships.


Love without a relationship. How sad.

You are right that there would not be any disappointment because there is no love there in the first place to hurt. Love only hurts when it is lost. In your scenario it was never there so it's loss hurts no one.

I never indicated that love could not grow cold. With a 50 odd % divorce rate it obviously can.

That does not take away the fact that without works and deeds, there is no true love.

Do you recall dating your wife and what your small work of saying you love her did to her?

The look, or whatever she gave in return, was likely what would be called love, as she returned the sentiment.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:26 am
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Love without a relationship is sad - I was never meanng to suggest that this would be the ideal situation, but it is still a situation that millions of people around the world find themselves in every day.

It is not correct to suggest that nothing is lost when a lover finds that their love is not returned - they lose the possibility, in their mind, that their feelings could form the basis of a relationship. They are faced with the option of either giving up their love or else living with a love that will never come to fruition in the form of a relationship. I am not sure which option is most difficult or painful.

In your example of expessing love to a partner, if that love had instead not been returned, that does not change the feelings of the one who loved, for that period of time that they were in love wih the other person. Their feelings were still real.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:04 pm
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Rory wrote:
Quote:
Love without a relationship is sad - I was never meanng to suggest that this would be the ideal situation, but it is still a situation that millions of people around the world find themselves in every day.

It is not correct to suggest that nothing is lost when a lover finds that their love is not returned - they lose the possibility, in their mind, that their feelings could form the basis of a relationship.


I agree and would say that they lose their delusion.

Quote:
They are faced with the option of either giving up their love or else living with a love that will never come to fruition in the form of a relationship. I am not sure which option is most difficult or painful.


That may be age related. The younger you are, the more options you likely have. It is easier to find a new love when young. I think.

Either way, I think losing a delusion will bring rewards if the ex delusional one starts to seek and perhaps find a real love.

Quote:
In your example of expessing love to a partner, if that love had instead not been returned, that does not change the feelings of the one who loved, for that period of time that they were in love wih the other person. Their feelings were still real.


I agree.

If no return is expected then one would not be too disappointed if it is not returned.

In the example I used of you telling your wife you loved her, you did not state your expectations, but I do know when a girl has told me she loved me, Even as I do not know how to love as well as some, I did know enough to return the sentiment and know that I would have disappointed her if I had not.

I do know that not all people look at love and marriage the same way.
In some areas, brides are bought more than there actually having marriage with love coming before the festivities.

Some of those areas have less divorce than in the West but they also have a lot more women dying at the hands of their husbands which adds to my view that love cannot be commanded or forced in any way.

Many people it seems can live with a spouse with something less than love holding them together.

I am glad I live in the West where love has been accentuated more than wealth. We do have the rich only marrying the rich but we also have rich and poor getting together sometimes.

Socio economics positions are too important in some countries. I do not like putting a price on love or marriage.

Regards
DL


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Rory
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:06 pm
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Well I would not say that the rejected lover loses their delusion, since that would imply that they once held false belief, and hope can exist even when it does not closely match expectation.

Love is valued above all else in the West and I would tend to agree with that perspective although I don't know if that is my own belief or merely the result of a quarter century of indoctrination. As I get older I find that the simple things in life bring most happiness.

It is possible to command obedience but not love. Personally I have not found it helpful to actively seek love and would rather carry one love, even if not successful, until it is naturally supplanted by another. That way, one may live a life that is full of love.

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Gnostic Bishop
Post  Post subject: Re: Can you love on command?  |  Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:58 pm
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That would be nice.

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DL


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