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iNow
Post  Post subject: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:33 am
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Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups? Are we doomed to forever have to focus on the how of our interactions instead of the what?

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Futilitist
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:46 pm
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iNow wrote:
Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?

Yes.

---Futilitist :ugeek:


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:33 am
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I suspect I know what you'll say, but would you elaborate a bit and explain why you think so? I don't think I disagree, but maybe I have different reasons for reaching the conclusion than you do.

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Futilitist
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:14 am
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iNow wrote:
...would you elaborate a bit and explain why you think so?

The reason politics are inevitable when humans gather in groups is that there is simply no viable alternative to politics for deciding who is in charge and how resources should be distributed. Humans are political animals. We were wired that way by evolution. There is no way to escape politics.

iNow wrote:
I suspect I know what you'll say,...

Were you right?

iNow wrote:
I don't think I disagree, but maybe I have different reasons for reaching the conclusion than you do.

Please explain.

iNow wrote:
Are we doomed to forever have to focus on the how of our interactions instead of the what?

No. Nothing lasts forever.

---Futilitist :ugeek:


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:20 am
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It feels like you did little more than to repeat yourself, as opposed to actually explaining it. You merely doubled-down on your original assertion, but I won't belabor it. You said something about evolution, but nothing about what specifically you think was selected for or genetically advantageous.

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Futilitist
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:40 am
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iNow wrote:
It feels like you did little more than to repeat yourself, as opposed to actually explaining it. You merely doubled-down on your original assertion, but I won't belabor it. You said something about evolution, but nothing about what specifically you think was selected for or genetically advantageous.

Thanks for the critique, iNow, but I think I answered sufficiently.

The question was:

Why do I think that politics are inevitable when humans gather in groups?

I mentioned that there is really no practical alternative to politics. Are you suggesting that there is? What would it be?

I also mentioned that humans were hard wired through evolution for politics, thus the behavior is difficult to change in any meaningful way.

So my answer is that:

1. We don't have an alternative to politics for making day to day decisions as a group.
---and---
2. Political behavior is just human nature. Being human is a hard habit to break.

The evolutionary advantage that politics confers upon a group is greater levels of social complexity and organization.

But you brought up the subject.

Do you think that politics are inevitable when humans gather in groups? If so, why?

---Futilitist :ugeek:


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iNow
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:57 pm
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Futilitist wrote:
I also mentioned that humans were hard wired through evolution for politics, thus the behavior is difficult to change in any meaningful way.

So my answer is that:

1. We don't have an alternative to politics for making day to day decisions as a group.
---and---
2. Political behavior is just human nature. Being human is a hard habit to break.

The evolutionary advantage that politics confers upon a group is greater levels of social complexity and organization.

Right, but what specific advantage do you suggest it brings? Are you suggesting that complexity in social groups is implicitly a good thing? How are we better organized through politics? I suspect you are equating politics with social/pack hierarchies and levels of subordination. Is that accurate? I'm not critiquing you or being difficult. I am seeking clarification of your point so I can better understand it.

What is the evolutionary advantage of being political, in your opinion? What benefit did it bring to the selection process? Why politics and not something else? That sort of thing...

Futilitist wrote:
Do you think that politics are inevitable when humans gather in groups? If so, why?

I'm not really sure yet, but it definitely feels that way. I have seen it in many contexts. I opened the thread to see what others thought. Maybe there are examples of times when humans gather in groups and politics is completely absent. Maybe someone can share ideas about that, but I probably need to think through how I'm defining "politics" and be explicit about that. Are you using any given definition of politics beyond what we could google or lookup at merriam-websters?

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iNow

"[Time] is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition." ~C. Sagan


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Futilitist
Post  Post subject: Re: Are politics inevitable when humans gather in groups?  |  Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:36 pm
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iNow wrote:
Right, but what specific advantage do you suggest it brings?

Advantages. Stability, conflict avoidance, resource efficiency, competitive advantage over other groups.

iNow wrote:
Are you suggesting that complexity in social groups is implicitly a good thing?

No. But it is a necessary thing.

Are you suggesting that politics is implicitly a bad thing?

iNow wrote:
How are we better organized through politics?

If humans did not have the ability to flock together usefully to form social and hierarchical structures through politics, it would be impossible for civilization to exist.

iNow wrote:
I suspect you are equating politics with social/pack hierarchies and levels of subordination. Is that accurate?

Yes.

iNow wrote:
What is the evolutionary advantage of being political, in your opinion?

Group stability, cohesiveness, efficiency, and coordination.

iNow wrote:
Why politics and not something else?

What else?

iNow wrote:
Futilitist wrote:
Do you think that politics are inevitable when humans gather in groups? If so, why?

I'm not really sure yet, but it definitely feels that way. I have seen it in many contexts. I opened the thread to see what others thought. Maybe there are examples of times when humans gather in groups and politics is completely absent.

I can't think of any.

iNow wrote:
Maybe someone can share ideas about that, but I probably need to think through how I'm defining "politics" and be explicit about that. Are you using any given definition of politics beyond what we could google or lookup at merriam-websters?

No.

---Futilitist :ugeek:


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